Do you ever feel like you're blind to your own actions? Or maybe you're caught in a pattern of self-blame and denial in your relationships. I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Jane Greer, renowned author of "Am I Lying to Myself? How to Overcome Denial and See the Truth," to discuss these very issues. Together, we shed light on denial as a defense mechanism, how it can distort our reality and ultimately lead to betrayal in relationships. Dr. Greer's expertise helped us explore the intricate dynamics of setting boundaries, dealing with demanders, and navigating the challenging path of overcoming betrayal.
We offered insights on navigating these difficult issues and moving towards a healing path. So, take a seat, open your mind, and join us on this journey of overcoming denial and betrayal in relationships. Let's dive in!
Dr. Jane Greer's bio:
"I am a Marriage and Family Therapist, Psychotherapist, Author, and Radio Host of the Doctor On Call Show at healthylife.net featuring Shrink Wrap, Pop Psych, and Let’s Talk Sex: conversations about love, work and life. My Shrink Wrap brand focuses on the trials and triumphs of relationships, with a spotlight on what we can learn from the celebrities.
I have been a prominent national authority appearing on numerous television shows including Oprah, The Today Show, The Early Show, CBS News, Dateline, The View, Good Day New York, CNN News, Anderson Cooper 360, and Fox News. I have contributed to newspapers and magazines such as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The Chicago Tribune, and I have been featured in People, US Weekly, In Touch, Cosmopolitan, Self, and Life & Style.
I was a contributing editor writing the "Let's Talk Sex Column" for Redbook Magazine and am a blogger for Psychologytoday.com and Brides.com.
My newest book, “AM I LYING TO MYSELF? How To Overcome Denial and See The Truth” is now available."
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Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
Website: www.kimberlybeamholmes.com
Thanks for listening!
Connect on Instagram: @kimberlybeamholmes
Be sure to SUBSCRIBE to the podcast and leave a review!
WE HAVE A NEW WEBSITE!!
Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!
Do you ever feel like you're blind to your own actions? Or maybe you're caught in a pattern of self-blame and denial in your relationships. I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Jane Greer, renowned author of "Am I Lying to Myself? How to Overcome Denial and See the Truth," to discuss these very issues. Together, we shed light on denial as a defense mechanism, how it can distort our reality and ultimately lead to betrayal in relationships. Dr. Greer's expertise helped us explore the intricate dynamics of setting boundaries, dealing with demanders, and navigating the challenging path of overcoming betrayal.
We offered insights on navigating these difficult issues and moving towards a healing path. So, take a seat, open your mind, and join us on this journey of overcoming denial and betrayal in relationships. Let's dive in!
Dr. Jane Greer's bio:
"I am a Marriage and Family Therapist, Psychotherapist, Author, and Radio Host of the Doctor On Call Show at healthylife.net featuring Shrink Wrap, Pop Psych, and Let’s Talk Sex: conversations about love, work and life. My Shrink Wrap brand focuses on the trials and triumphs of relationships, with a spotlight on what we can learn from the celebrities.
I have been a prominent national authority appearing on numerous television shows including Oprah, The Today Show, The Early Show, CBS News, Dateline, The View, Good Day New York, CNN News, Anderson Cooper 360, and Fox News. I have contributed to newspapers and magazines such as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The Chicago Tribune, and I have been featured in People, US Weekly, In Touch, Cosmopolitan, Self, and Life & Style.
I was a contributing editor writing the "Let's Talk Sex Column" for Redbook Magazine and am a blogger for Psychologytoday.com and Brides.com.
My newest book, “AM I LYING TO MYSELF? How To Overcome Denial and See The Truth” is now available."
LINKS:
Facebook
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
Website: www.kimberlybeamholmes.com
Thanks for listening!
Connect on Instagram: @kimberlybeamholmes
Be sure to SUBSCRIBE to the podcast and leave a review!
WE HAVE A NEW WEBSITE!!
Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!
Today we're talking about betrayal and how to overcome denial and betrayal, because if you didn't know which I didn't those actually have quite a link to them, so we're going to be talking all about that. Today. I am interviewing Dr Jane Greer, who is the author of the new book Am I Lying to Myself? How to Overcome Denial and See the Truth. And we get into what is denial and why is it that people get in denial about certain things and what is that link between denial and betrayal? And if someone has been betrayed, what are the steps to overcoming that? We talk a lot about boundaries, a lot about just different tension points throughout this subject, such as well.
Speaker 1:What if you do find out that the thing you were most scared of is true? Your spouse has been lying to you, A loved one has been hiding things from you, A person that you trusted ended up taking advantage of you and you were lying to yourself about it, trying to be in denial to make it make sense in your head. But then, when you face the truth, how do you handle the lies or the things that have been covered up with? Also the fact that maybe you want to restore the relationship? How do you move forward when that's the case. We talk about that in so many other things in today's episode.
Speaker 1:Dr Greer has written many books. She's also been a national authority and she's been on Oprah, the Today Show, the Early Show, CBS, Dateline tons of amazing platforms that she's been on. She's also been a contributing writer for Red Book Magazine as well as PsychologyTodaycom, and we have a fantastic conversation. Let's dive into today's episode. Dr Greer, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about denial, to talk about overcoming betrayal. This is going to be a great conversation and I appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It's a pleasure because, as a therapist, my work is helping people recognize when they're steeped in denial and the impact that that has, how that can really confound their lives, complicate their lives and bring their lives to a grinding halt. And then that leads into their winding up being betrayed by people that they love because they didn't see it coming and so they didn't know how to protect themselves. And helping them recognize denial so that they can see what I call the watch out signs and the breadcrumbs that will tell them hmm, somebody's not necessarily trustworthy. They better protect themselves is really so important.
Speaker 1:Wow, yes, right, I mean you and I. We were just talking a little bit before we started the show and I said does it make sense for us to talk about overcoming betrayal and overcoming denial? And you said, oh, they're one and the same. And I said, well, great, this is going to be fantastic. And, of course, you've written a book about this Am I lying to myself? Is the name of it and I'm sure we'll talk more about that throughout our episode and encourage people to get it at the end of the show, but let's start with that first part of it. So what is it? I mean define denial and what circumstances do people start to feel denial and what are the signs that people should be watching out for when we experience that?
Speaker 2:So denial is when you think magical, you think positively, you ignore the negative, you change the negative, you make the bad not so bad, you make you turn the little into a lot or you turn the a lot into a little and minimize a problem. And when people are dealing with denial, one of the one of the strongest indicators is when you find yourself continually surprised by what somebody says or does repeatedly. So you're in denial if you're dealing with a husband, a wife, a friend, a colleague, a boss, a parent, anybody whose behavior, when they drink or lie or disappoint you or they are with the same behavior each time. It's as if it's the first time it ever happened. I can't believe they did this. And it's not like you don't know.
Speaker 2:They do this because, for example, if you're dealing with somebody who drinks or somebody who's spending money and you confront anybody on behavior that's upsetting, they'll say to you okay, I'll change, I'll stop, I'll deal with it, I'll work with it. And most people say, okay, I'll go along with that, I believe that. And then it happens again and you're like I thought you said you were going to stop that denial it's accepting people, their behavior and what they tell you, rather than using what you know, and what they would like to do and what they are able to do are very different.
Speaker 1:Is there a predisposition that someone might have that would lend them to be in denial more often than someone else?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, denial is a defense mechanism that we all have, and in moderation and without it being excessive. It's functional, it's helpful, it helps us protect ourselves, it helps us cope with shock or overwhelming difficulties in life. But so we all have it. It becomes a question of how much, and how much do we employ it, how much do we use it and how much does it become obstructive in our lives? We all know the person, the friend, who you can see that she's dealing with a no good, go nowhere, what I call a go nowhere guy and a go nowhere relationship. You can see it clearly, she can't. And you could talk to your blue in the face and she's going to tell you all the wonderful qualities and attributes that he has. And you're just going to be sitting there waiting for the train wreck because you know he's either going to hurt her, disappoint her, abandon her or, worse yet, be verbally or physically abusive.
Speaker 1:Yes, which absolutely would be the worst case scenario and what no one would want to happen. I'm wondering, as that kind of extreme put to the side, isn't there an opposite to this, though, where someone could be so, the opposite of denial, where they're overthinking, they're over anxious, they're seeing things where there's not something to be seen. They're more paranoid on the other side of this, which wouldn't be healthy either, right? So what would you say is the healthy middle ground from denial to paranoia?
Speaker 2:Well, so I have a skill in my book called Use what you Know. It really is about tracking the signs that you see. If somebody is coming home late frequently and giving you a lot of different plausible reasons, but nonetheless excuses, write it down. Keep track of all the small details. I say read the small print. In small letters on a pack of cigarettes. It says smoking can be hazardous to your health. If you don't read the small print you'll miss the small signs and there you are, the ones that add up. So when somebody is telling you something over and over and you start to get that nagging feeling, that's when it's time to pay attention. That nagging feeling is your gut. And when you start to trust your gut, it enables you to take action and make choices so that you can protect yourself. And when you dismiss your gut, when you do not use what you know, you become vulnerable and to manipulation and vulnerable to betrayal.
Speaker 1:I've heard and read several different times and I wish I could remember the exact research and how it's worded but that trusting your gut isn't just this nice thing that sounds good although it does. It really is kind of the easy way to put a lot of science into one phrase that says there's a lot of things going on in your brain that you're not conscious of, that is sending signals to you to tell you to trust or not trust in this situation. And so this intuition and especially for women, this gut intuition is remarkably correct.
Speaker 2:It's not just it is surely like wait, what happens for a lot of people, particularly women. They don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. I've heard women say they've gotten into an elevator with somebody that made them here in New York City, made them extremely uncomfortable, but they didn't want to send the message that, oh, you look scary to me and I'm afraid. So they put themselves instead in a potentially dangerous, risky situation. Same thing is true with a partner, a lover, friend, whomever that is telling you what they want you to believe or think. You start to get that gut feeling that you know this is not adding up, this does not make sense. But you don't want to look like you are the bad person. You don't want to discredit them. You want them to think that you think, you know, you accept what they're saying and think well of them. So you compromise yourself and your self-esteem when you've got yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 1:I just think back to the handful. Probably several times in my life when I have gone against my gut, like my gut was telling me don't hire this person, don't date this person, don't whatever. But I would just convince myself logically of all these other reasons that maybe I was wrong, or I was seeing it wrong, or you know XYZ, and not once was I wrong.
Speaker 2:That's denial, right there. Yeah, you hate yourself when you say take a lot and you make it a little. You minimize it. You say no or you turn yourself into the bad person I'm being unreasonable, my expectations are too much. Look how hard he or she is trying. I have to be, I have to be more tolerant. You turn it into a self-esteem issue that you're not being a good enough person as opposed to the other person is not being a good enough person. And once it becomes a self-esteem issue, you become invested in maintaining the denial in order to feel good about yourself. And also, here's the other thing when you acknowledge your denial and see the reality, then you need to do something about it.
Speaker 2:Very often that harkens a change. That means ending a relationship, leaving a job, confronting a partner. It requires the kind of action that many people, if not most, would choose to avoid if possible. They don't want to end a marriage. They don't want to leave a job. This is not so bad. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know, and it's like the Wizard of Oz. I always say denial is the Houdini of the heart. It makes all the bad stuff disappear, and the Wizard of Oz is, you know, ignore that man behind the curtain. And that's what people do, but they do it in order to preserve what they have, even if it's bad, because change can be so frightening and the unknown is so scary. At least they know and feel that they have some measure of control over what's going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely this. I know of a situation recently where there was a woman who was in a work situation and a higher up person started saying inappropriate things, doing inappropriate things towards her and at first her reaction was like what am I doing to lead this to happen? Clearly, they're supposed to be my mentor, they're supposed to be my higher up. This isn't how they're supposed to act. So clearly, either I'm interpreting this wrong or there, you know, or I'm doing something that's just leading this to happen. But the bottom line of it was like she was in denial right, she was in denial of he's doing inappropriate things and her gut was telling her this isn't right, but he should be trustworthy. Like he's in a position where he should be trustworthy.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't until, just like you were saying, like you're confronted with this decision and things just kept on and kept on and kind of started getting worse and progressing. And she was like I have to draw a line in the sand and it's going to be uncomfortable and it's going to be awkward, but like not only do I have to tell him to stop and no longer contact me, but I also need to tell someone that this is happening and because it's not right and that's a hard place to be, and I feel like this happens more often than and right now I'm specifically talking about like women being inappropriately spoken to or come on to in situations where they shouldn't be. I feel like this happens way more than it should be or that people give acknowledgement to because women don't speak up, because there is a shame, there is a I've done something wrong or I feel like I may have done something wrong.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to get you to get the nail on the head that I've done something wrong. But to the flip side of that is, if you feel that you're responsible and it's your fault, then you feel like you can exercise control and make it better. So if you take on the blame, then somehow you can try harder, strive harder and do something to make it stop and go away. Yeah, so that's the investment people have, without even realizing it in self blame. That all right. If it's me, then I can work hard or try harder. I'll do this, I'll do that to make it go away, when in fact it's not you, it's them, so it's. You know, denial is a way that people try and keep their lives happy and going well. It really is something that when you avoid it and don't deal with it to overcome it, it will bite you from behind and it will lead to being betrayed. You know, in my book I talk about Demander's denial, the. You know you're driving me crazy.
Speaker 2:The people that we all have in our lives who complain, the stay stuck complainers. They just complain and complain and complain and drive you crazy, and no matter what you say and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try and no matter how high, how high you jump, it will never satisfy them. And most people spend a tremendous amount of effort, energy, time and effort to get that other person. To see how blind they are, to see you're missing. How hard I try, you're missing everything I do. You're not acknowledging this and I say to people that's Demander's denial. You've got somebody who's making demands on you and they will never acknowledge your needs. You will. Your needs and what's important to you will never exist to them, accepting connection to what they want and need from you. And until you confront your own denial, to see that the demander is in denial as to who you are and what you need, you're going to be locked into unhappiness and battle and conflict trying to get the other person to change.
Speaker 1:Hmm, what if there was someone you said you talked about this in your book? What if there was someone reading the book and they realized I'm the demandor, like I'm the one who's being unreasonable or unfair in certain you know areas of my relationships? How can the demandor change?
Speaker 2:That is such a great question. You know it's unlikely that they would read it and see themselves as the demandor, because most demandors feel self-righteous, and by that I mean they feel they have a right to make the demands, to have the expectations that they have of those around them. It's a measure of if you loved me, you would, If you loved me, you would do this. So they don't feel that what they're asking is unreasonable or unfair or excessive. So it's unusual for them to see themselves as a demandor.
Speaker 2:I have a book called what About Me? It's About Selfishness, and I did have a gentleman come in one time whose wife read it. Well, she was on the brink of divorcing him and she said to him you better go get some help, because it delineates narcissistic behavior and selfish behavior. And so in hindsight he could see that he had been selfish, but only because he was in peril. His wife was about to walk out the door and she did because he still couldn't get it. He made the effort to come in and try and understand it, but he still didn't really grasp how much of her he expected and how little of himself he gave.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, those are hard situations. I guess I asked the question because it's from my perspective and the people that I've worked with and the couples that I've worked with I want to have the belief or I do have the belief that every relationship can turn around. Will every relationship turn around? No, because each person has free will. But even if there's the person who is the selfish person, the one who leans more in their narcissistic behaviors, the person who's the demandor, I believe, as a person, as a human being, that every human can change.
Speaker 1:Whether or not they will is a different story, and so, in approaching conversations like this, I also think it's one of those tension points of like, yes, you have to lay down your boundaries and you have to listen to your gut and do all of those things, but at the same time and so my question to you would be but how do you balance that with not wanting to just throw away a relationship, Like wanting to do everything you can to try and help it to turn around or save it, if at all possible, while also balancing your own needs? How do you approach situations like that?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a great question, I mean. I agree with you. I have to say that, as a marriage therapist, we have to believe that if two people come in and want to make their marriage better and learn the skills and the strategies for doing so, they will. With that being said, that is not always the modus operandi and the starting point, for when couples come into therapy, very often they come in where one person knows they want out of the marriage or they've already left because they're involved with somebody else, and so they're not fully committed to making it better. And I think it's a matter of really trying to help each person have the clarity of where their intention is. Are they truly committed to making their marriage better and making the changes that it will require?
Speaker 2:I had a couple of years ago. He did not want to be in my office in the worst way and they came in and she was going into all the things that she was unhappy about. Well, usually the person who finally drags their partner is the one who's reached a breaking point and the other one is content because all their needs to your point are getting met, so they're not looking to change the equation. And he looked and he said well, I think therapy is a waste and if we have to be here and work on our relationship, well then I don't think you know we need to do that. Our marriage is fine and I don't want to do that, and yada, yada. So I said, okay, fine, but listening to your wife, she's kind of at her last nerve and if things don't change for her, she's saying very clearly she's going to end the marriage. So if you don't want to do the work, that's fine, but you have two kids, then we're going to need to figure out how to dismantle your marriage, work out child custody agreements, work out living arrangements, work out time spent with kids apart. And then you know what You're going to be single and you're going to have to find a place to live, and then you're going to have to start dating, and then you're going to have to start figuring out how to make a relationship work. And then you're going to be dating somebody and you may have similar issues, because issues in relationships are there.
Speaker 2:And so he looked at me. He said all right, dr Greer, let's work on the marriage. That was the reality and it was amazing because he worked so hard. There was a column in Red Book Magazine called had this marriage be saved? And this couple did so stellar that I said you know what, if you guys would be willing to share the skills you learned and the changes you made because you just overhauled and transformed your marriage? He was so grateful and he worked so hard, but he came in with such negativity. And so you balance it with offering people the chance to do the work and then with a wing and a prayer, hoping that they do it and that the work leads to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I've also seen as well that even when it's the couple or the spouse who's leaning in, the one who wants the change to happen.
Speaker 1:A lot of times when that person does the work, whether it's the husband or the wife, many times it softens and deescalates the situation enough that, even though the other spouse was leaning out, they begin to lean back in and say like maybe this marriage isn't as bad as I thought it was, or maybe my spouse is different or is changing In certain ways, and maybe this is something to consider coming back to, which leads me to another question about the denial and the betrayal. How, in this process because I just picture again thinking of the clients that we work with mostly in the place of denial, I think there's a temptation to want to write the other person off when you finally open your eyes or let yourself trust your gut, right? So if my gut's been telling me all of this stuff and then, all of a sudden, I have to come to terms with I'm not wrong, I'm not crazy. Actually, all of this is true, how do you hold that with? But I still love this person? Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:I still want to make it work. That's a really terrific question, because that is the line in the sand. That is the determinant for people whether they are willing to commit to working at what led to the betrayal and the infidelity and transforming the marriage, or if they are just so consumed with anger that there's no room to do any work and the relationship ends. But you know, look, I say all the time, I've worked with a gazillion couples and I've done a tremendous amount of work with infidelity. And if you're not talking about somebody who's a serial cheat or somebody who just moves from one relationship to the next, most people cheat because there's room in their marriage. They are unhappy with their partner and they reach a point of not just disappointment and deprivation but hopelessness, resignation. They reach a point of feeling that there's no point talking to him or her anymore. He or she is not going to change. And when you reach that point of resignation, very often what happens is they stop complaining, fighting, making issues, so the other person thinks everything's fine, they think everything is great because their spouse is off their back. But in the meantime they are so unhappy that when they get attention or devotion or interest from somebody else a new relationship springs up. But so many people have said to me I wish I could have with my partner what I have with my lover.
Speaker 2:Everybody's ever been in my office in another relationship has begun with I'm a good person, but don't look to cheat. They get there because of their own despair and so when couples appreciate that you can get to, well, what didn't you do that led your partner to cheat, at least till the betrayal starts to heal? That doesn't come into play till 10 months. 11 months. Depends varies from couple to couple, but the first piece of betrayal and healing is the person who cheated has to apologize, take responsibility, devote their energy and time to rebuilding trust, become transparent, since before everything was hidden and there are certainly very specific steps towards healing. But they will then have to deal with how selfish they were, how inattentive they were to their partner. The person who was betrayed after they heal will then have to deal with well, why would they have gone off and done this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to back up and because I think we skipped over the clarity of this part. So can you explain how the denial and the betrayal piece, how one turns into the other?
Speaker 2:Sure, when you're in denial, if you suspect that your husband might be having an affair, let's just go with that. He's looking at his phone all the time. He's coming home late. You hear a woman's voice on the message and you say who is that? Oh, that's just somebody at work. You hear a name over and over and over. Oh, we're good friends, she's my assistant.
Speaker 2:And every time you raise anxiety or fear or jealousy or concerns, you're met with pushback. You're met with your being jealous. There's no reason. You're being ridiculous, it's minimized. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. There's nothing to worry about. You are completely negated in your truth.
Speaker 2:So in order to stay with that and avoid the reality, you go with the denial. You make it disappear. You accept, like you were saying before. Yeah, I guess that's right when I tell you it's unfathomable the things that one person has told the other to cover their trails. One woman found a tampon in the bag the grocery bag at dinner and she had stopped getting her period two years before and the husband was able to come up with an excuse. Another woman found an earring in the car. Oh, that must have been when they were fixing the car. You know these kinds of things.
Speaker 2:So when you say, yeah, I guess that's possible, and employ denial, you stay in denial and eventually eventually, most affairs are disclosed and revealed. The doubt builds enough, the person gets sloppy. You know, particularly in today's day, an age of technology, the phone records, the bills, there are so many different ways to be discovered and then you're hit full force. Yeah, so that's one example. But the same thing is true if you're dealing with somebody who drinks too much and they say to you I'm going to go to AA, I'm going to stop. That's on Sunday or Saturday, when they've been drunk and you've been embarrassed and you've been angry and they've made a mess, and you say, yeah, well, he sounds really sincere, this time he will, and then you go about your lives, and then the following weekend it's the same thing. So eventually there's going to be the showdown where it just becomes too much, where you can't deny it anymore.
Speaker 1:So it's the and that's it. It's when the denial can't, it's when the action can't be denied anymore. Well, there's an unexplicably, it unexplicably comes to light and you have to face the truth is glaring and I will tell you this.
Speaker 2:I have had many couples, even when they've been confronted, when you know they have records of the affair they have they've caught them in action the partner will still lie about it and say it was just a kiss. It was only three months as opposed to three years. It was only this instead of that. Part of the hardest thing with betrayal is being able to trust your own judgment again, because you've been lied to and your own denial has allowed you to be so vulnerable that it becomes very challenging. How do I trust my own judgment? How do I know who to believe and when to believe them, because denial distorts so much of the reality. What am I working with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it doesn't even have to be necessarily with the same person. A woman, for example, could be in denial about different situations that have happened in her life, and so she loses the ability to trust her judgment in general, not just with her husband or in a specific situation.
Speaker 2:Exactly what you're describing now is well, frank called it the repetition compulsion. But what it is is that we all have the patterns and the dynamics of our childhood, the early traumas, the early abandonments and losses that get replicated in our relationships. So it's not unusual if somebody is ending a marriage that they're having difficulty or losing a job. At the same time. It's not unusual when people are going through combustive, difficult, conflicted relationships with somebody at work that they're having conflict at home. We tend to replicate our issues. It's like life.
Speaker 2:To me it's like a three-ring circus. It used to be. You know, you watch the main ring, but it was the same act in all the other rings the flying chapeze. You had it in three different rings. So you might be having more conflict with your partner, but if that subsides, maybe you're having the same or similar conflict with a friend, with somebody at work, with somebody in a store. The way we are and the expectations that we have and the way we interact tend to be constant and we carry that with us in all of our interactions.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking back to what you said about the person who's having the affair or has the gambling addiction or alcoholism, whatever it is, and they're also in a self-denial as well, like if they well, would you say that? Would you say that they're in a self-denial as to what's really going on, or are they just lying in order to, because they don't want to hurt the other person? Ironically, they are hurting the other person.
Speaker 2:It's exactly right, it's both. They're in denial in terms of seeing the other person for who they are. So there's the external denial, but they're in denial in terms of themselves, as to what they are living with, how they feel, how hurtful it is, how bad it is, how unreasonable the expectations of them are. So the denial, the self-denial, is all about maintaining self-esteem. And when you lie to yourself about you know I could have done more. A lot of times, when you're dealing with somebody who is a demandor, you turn it into I could have done more, I should have done more. I'll try harder.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll call my mother four times a day if that's going to make her happy. Okay, I'll stay the extra two hours at work. If the boss is going to approve and it's not going to happen you stay two hours. Your boss is going to say why didn't you stay until eight o'clock instead of seven o'clock? If you call your mother four times, she's going to say how come you didn't call me in the morning? That's the way it is. When you make it about your, when you, when you make it what you're doing wrong, instead of questioning and evaluating the expectations of the other person, when you make it, your own expectations that you're not good enough. You'll stay stuck in your denial and you'll stay locked into jumping through hoops and trying to jump over a high bar that you're never going to reach.
Speaker 1:How can we assess and understand the difference between someone who is a demandor versus someone who's letting us know like, hey, this is what I would appreciate in order for our relationship to be more fulfilling or more satisfactory? So, basically, we're someone saying just normal, like these are my normal needs, versus they're demanding. How, where is that line and what are some of the things to look for?
Speaker 2:Well, the first thing is degree. It's how much they ask of you. To what extent, how much do they expect you to sacrifice from your own life? And then the punchline is gratitude and appreciation. Do they acknowledge what you've done? You know, if your mother says, can you drive me to the doctors Monday, Wednesday and Friday and you have to arrange childcare for your kid, or you have to figure something else to do it, and it's not all the time, number one, where you're expected to just put aside your, your familial needs and where your mother is appreciative and says, you know, thank you so much, that really really makes me good. That's reasonable and fair. But if every week your mother is expecting you to take her to the doctor, food shopping, to the store, wherever, to be her chauffeur essentially and too bad about your kids, figure it out on your own time. And when you do do that, you're never met with thank you or I appreciate it. You're met with. Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that?
Speaker 2:I remember one woman was telling me you know, with with when you're dealing with Demander's denial, you can never win with that person. You just can't do it right. So she told me her mother had come for dinner and had left her scarf on the chair and it was really freezing cold. And her mother was at the car and she looked at the scarf and she said you know, I don't know if she left it intentionally because she didn't need it, or if she left it for me to bring out to her and she didn't know what to do. So she, finally she, brought it out to her mother. She said you know, I thought you might be cold. And her mother said I left it because I didn't need it. If she didn't bring it out, her mother would have said how could you have not brought me my scarf? It's freezing, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, looking for it Either way, I was looking for the other.
Speaker 2:I said you know, and that's what it is. I have people you know and it's not just parents, it's partners what you do for them, it's never enough. If you extend yourself to do one thing, sisters, if you or brothers, if you extend yourself to spend time or give money, do whatever it is to help, they won't remember what you did do. They'll just tell you what you didn't do. And what you didn't do was, of course, meet a gazillion unreasonable expectations. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's talk more about betrayal. So specifically, how does, how does someone overcome betrayal?
Speaker 2:Well, it really helps if the person who betrayed you is committed to healing with you, because then it becomes a process and that that's very fundamental. It starts with that person owning the betrayal and the hurt and the pain. Apologizing. The apology is step one and then from there, devoting their time and energy to rebuilding your trust and regaining your trust, letting you see their emails, making their computer open, not spending their time on the phone. I had one guy. He used to, on noon on Saturdays he'd go to the market to meet his lover. So in the aftermath he was going down to the market. He said to his wife come with me.
Speaker 2:You just are an open book and you have to be willing, if you're the one who betrayed, to tolerate your partner's anger, which is tricky because they're angry for a very long time, and you have to be able to. You know, a lot of times people will say well, I said I'm sorry, what more can I do? And they want it to be over because the anger reminds them that they behave badly and feel guilty about the betrayal. But you have to have the tolerance and the willingness to apologize and empathize with the pain that you caused that person for however long it takes. I did a TV show a few years back and one of the guys said to me Dr Greer, how long do I have to apologize? I've been apologizing for a year. I said you know what you have to apologize until she doesn't need to hear it anymore. I mean, that's how long it is, and you know when trust is broken it can be rebuilt, but it does leave a crack in a cup. You can mend it, but there is a crack. So there is fear and anxiety around certain times and occasions and both people have to be prepared for that.
Speaker 2:If you've been betrayed and the person has, you know if it's a job, or somebody stole an idea, or you know a friend stole something of yours another friend, I mean, there are many ways that people get betrayed. What I call couldn't help myself betray. Those person feels they had to do what they did in their own self interest. How so? You have to look at your own denial. How did I not see this coming? What did I miss? Where do I have to build a stronger fence so that I don't let people that are self-serving and selfish and exploited into my life? You have to look at how to better protect yourself how to put better boundaries in place, and to do that you have to really look at what you accept, what people tell you and how you trust your judgment or not.
Speaker 1:What are some examples of? You said put better boundaries in place, moving forward. So what are some examples of how you have seen people do that well and examples of where you've seen people really not do that well?
Speaker 2:Well. Doing it well means being able to say you know, I wish I could or I'd like to, but I can't. It means raining in your energy stop overextending to try and prove yourself to somebody and get their approval of you, and start to approve of yourself and give yourself self-approval. So it means saying no If, whoever it is, whoever the significant other is asking you to do something that is unreasonable, to say look, I wish I could, but I'm not going to be able to. And to stop overextending when it doesn't. Where people don't do it is they keep, they keep, they continue to overextend, they continue to do too much, give too much, literally at their own expense, physically and financially, and set themselves up to get taken advantage of and betrayed again and again, and again.
Speaker 1:You know what's hard? Not necessarily with betrayal specifically, but in just thinking of that, that statement you said of I wish I could, but I can't. What's hard for me is to say that without a disclaimer I wish I would, but I can't, because I have to give a good reason, like I always feel, like I have to have a really good reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's the guilt. It keeps people locked in. Right, I feel like you have to do for the people, but what I always say is it's hard to say no to people. So go with the wish, go with I wish I could. If I could, I would. I wish I could, I'd love to. Unfortunately I'm not able to, and that's it. You do not need to delineate why you can't. You may want to stay home and sleep in bed. You may have a doctor's appointment, you may have plans with somebody else. If you don't want to do it, that's legitimate. You know. Put it up in the backdrop of how much you've probably done for that person. And isn't it about time to start to balance the scales?
Speaker 2:So I always say, you know, particularly with family members, parents, siblings, partners, spouses who make, who hesitate not at demanding the world of you, stay with, I'd love to. Unfortunately I can't, because go with the feeling. You know I had somebody. Their mother wanted to come and live with them and the husband said if your mother comes and lives with us, that's it, this marriage is over. And the mother wouldn't relent. You know she was older, but the reality of her living with them was ludicrous. So every time my mother would say it she would say oh mom, I would love that. If only that were possible. I wish it could be. And then she would, just like with a four-year-old, change the topic and distract her from it. The feeling was that the mother got was I'd love to. That was enough to help her deal with. It's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. As we wrap up, dr Greer, for the person who is struggling with the feeling of denial, or you know, struggling with the denial right now, or struggling with feeling betrayed because they were in denial and it's come to light, what is the hope that you would give that person right now of the next things you would encourage them to do?
Speaker 2:I would say that if you take inventory of what did you miss, what did you not pay attention to that led to your betrayal, where did your denial trip you up? If you start to trust your gut and speak your truth to people and share how you feel and use your anger and your disappointment to set limits and put them in place, you will grow stronger, feel stronger and cultivate healthier and more positive loving relationships that are reciprocal, Because a lot of times when you're in a betrayal, when you're dealing with betrayal, relationships are unbalanced and there's a lot of output and not a lot of input.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you so much. You have several books, but the most recent one that you have put out. Can you tell us about it and where people can buy it?
Speaker 2:It is called. Am I Lying to Myself? How to Overcome Denial and See the Truth? You can get that on Amazon or go directly to my website, wwwdrjaingreercom. You can buy it right off my website. You can buy my book on betrayal. How could you do this to me? Learning to trust and to betrayal, and if you're dealing with a selfish partner, you can buy. What about me? Stop selfishness from ruining your relationship.
Speaker 1:You have great titles and subtitles. Did you come up with those?
Speaker 2:Yes, you know what I like to keep it in what I hear all the time and actually my book how Could you Do this To Me? I was doing a lot. My first book was Adult Sibling Rivalry and I looked at relationships that are sibling. Relationships from childhood have in shaping our friendships, our marital partners, our working in relationships with colleagues and when I was doing the publicity for that book, just about every show that I did, it didn't matter. Mother's, daughter's, husband's wife's didn't matter. The undercurrent theme was betrayal and one person was turning to the other, going how could you do this to me? If you think about it, that is the default statement that anybody who's betrayed says. That is, everybody says how could you do this to me? So that became the title it's brilliant, it's a great title. Thank you so much. And also with selfishness. You know when you're feeling you're not getting your fair share. I mean you hear kids say what about me? That's right. So I try to stick with the titles that evoke the feelings which go with it.
Speaker 1:And that's exactly what you should do. I'm a marketer by trade. That's my background, and it's like, yes, that's the perfect title for to sell that book 100%. All three of them, thank you. All three of them, thank you. We'll put the links to all those books in the show notes, as well as a link to your website. Thank you so much for joining me today, dr Greer. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. More than a pleasure. It was great Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Here is my main key takeaway from today's conversation. There was a lot that we talked about and, honestly, this can be a difficult subject for people who are currently scared that they might be living in denial or who are currently overcoming betrayal in their lives, and I'm aware that this could be a potentially hurtful or triggering conversation. Trying to find another word than triggering, it's not necessarily my favorite, but it could be a conversation that brings up some of those fears and anxieties and what ifs and all of those things. And here's the bottom line of what I want every single person to hear there is always hope. No matter what has happened in your relationships in your life, there's always hope for you to rise above and become a better person throughout the process and there's always hope that the relationship can turn around.
Speaker 1:Had a great conversation with Dr Greer and she's definitely seen an amazing amount of clients over her time that she has been a marriage and family therapist and at the work that I have done at Marriage Helper, we have also seen an amazing amount of clients as well, and so there's a few things in our conversation that I might see differently than what she has worked with and what she has seen. Overall, what I know to be true is that when people can begin to work on themselves, the relationship truly can change. And I always hesitate to say or tell people or even encourage people to think about leaving a relationship, because ultimately that is your decision and that's absolutely not what came up in today's conversation. But I think that when we talk about things like this and with setting boundaries and making sure relationships are healthy, one of the quick things that many people go to is well, maybe I should just leave, Maybe I should start over with someone new. And what I encourage and I'm sure Dr Greer would agree is to really think about well, what are the consequences of that and what if I really could invest time and effort into doing what I can, seeing my part in this relationship and doing what I can to turn it around, and more often than not, that leads to the transformation of the relationship as a whole. There's always hope, even through difficult situations and difficult circumstances. I hope you know that.
Speaker 1:As always, please share this episode with a friend who may need it or who would benefit from it, or a family member. Sharing it absolutely helps the message to get out and for the show to grow. And if you would be so willing as to leave a comment, leave a review of the show. It can help us to reach even more people. You can do that by going to wherever you listen to this show, whether it's on iTunes or iHeartRadio or Spotify. It's available anywhere you're listening to podcasts and if you're able to leave a review, doing that would be amazing. Thanks for joining me this week and until next week, stay strong.