Feeling Whole, Valued, and Having Self-Worth with Veronica Grant

Relationships are so important—especially the relationship we have with ourselves.

In this episode, Kimberly speaks with Veronica Grant, a Love and Life Coach specializing in helping people do deep work to create deep love in relationships. Veronica shares her story of struggling with self-image and feeling like her worth was within other people rather than herself. We can all relate to this episode, especially in the current social-media-obsessed culture we live in. Veronica shares tips on showing up in relationships and ensuring you don't go backward with finding validation within your partner, spouse, or friends.

If you lack confidence or struggle with self-worth, you are going to love this episode. Veronica dives in deeper to help you understand where certain feelings or thoughts are coming from and things you can do to uncover the emotions.

Today's Speaker: Veronica Grant, Love and Life Coach

Veronica is a Love + Life Coach, host of the popular Love Life Connection podcast, and author of the forthcoming book You Are Meant for Love. She helps successful women who feel like they have it all except love, find it.

Veronica's work has been featured in O the Oprah Magazine, Bustle, Your Tango, and countless podcasts, including Let It Out and Mind Body Musings.

As someone who struggled in love herself and was tired of unsolicited and usually patronizing dating advice (even if well-meaning), she created the resources she wished were available before she met her husband. Through her binge-worthy podcast, free challenges, and coaching, she's here to shake up how you find love, even in our swipe right, swipe left world.

A few of her guilty pleasures include: psychoanalyzing TV + real-life famous couples, hiking with her husband and pup, and sushi everything.

Find the book and assessment here: https://veronicagrant.com/

Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships

Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.

Website: www.PIESUniversity.com

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Thanks for listening!

Connect on Instagram: @kimberlybeamholmes @pies_university

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You'll Learn

• how to have self-worth and feel validated by yourself and not others
• what you need to do to feel loved, safe, and belonging 
• how to treat yourself the way you want others to treat you 

Episode 90 - Feeling Whole, Valued, and Having Self-Worth with Veronica Grant

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Transcript

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 0:30

One of the things that I have learned as I have been completing my PhD in Psychology has been a lot about how individuals view themselves. And even the importance of self esteem and self worth, which are actually two different things. I don't have time to go into that right now. But it's important. We know, I know from the research that I've been reading that self esteem and self worth are important for an individual, just for the individual. But they are also important for that individual to be able to show up and have a healthy, satisfying relationships, not just romantic relationships, but all of the relationships in their lives. And this episode starts with attraction. I'm speaking with Veronica grant, Veronica has more of her experience in the dating world, and how she works with people, but she is passionate about helping people to feel whole and valued before they ever step into the next relationship. Instead of trying to find the value from the relationship. How can we encourage people to get their self worth before and not have to base it on the way that someone else treats or reacts to them? I absolutely love that. And it's totally in line with what we talk about when we talk about attraction, and the four parts of attraction physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual, you do those things for you. First and foremost, let's dive in to today's episode.

Unknown: 2:06

There's a process to falling in love. And it starts with attraction. Join Kimberly beam homes and our special guests as they discuss how to become the most attractive you can be physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually, or as we refer to it, working on your pies will teach you how to have better relationships and become more attracted to others. And maybe more importantly, to yourself. It starts with attraction. And it starts now.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 2:35

So Veronica, first of all, I'm very excited to have you on and have a ton of questions that I'm super prepared and excited to ask of you. But I have to ask you this one first. Tell me about you and your sister hiking in Tanzania?

Veronica Grant: 2:53

Well, I think what you're referring to it wasn't hiking as much as it was hitchhiking.

Unknown: 2:58

I think more than one what's gonna happen in the story.

Veronica Grant: 3:02

So I visited her back in 2012 13, maybe 13. Yeah. And she was in the Peace Corps. And and so we were trying to like get to this town where her other Peace Corps friends were because we're taking this boat to an island. So like we needed to get to this town. But it was getting late, and it's getting dark, and we couldn't find a bus that would take us and blah, blah, blah. And so we were basically like in this like little, I don't know what you call like a town that was just kind of like a little hub for getting to different places. And so we are just waiting for a bus, no buses coming. So at this point, we were just asking anyone and everyone who could potentially drive us to this town. Also, like I didn't even know if there was like, a place to stay if there was like a hotel or anything and in an area. It wasn't like a nice place by any stretch and or nice town. And so I was getting a little worried. I think she was starting to get a little panicked. Technically, the Peace Corps volunteers in Tanzania I don't know about other countries aren't allowed to travel on the roads at night because it is pretty dangerous. I mean, the roads, they're dangerous chairman on a beautiful sunny day. Plus, like, you know, crime and roads or whatever, lots of stuff. Anyways, so finally, this truck that was like, I don't know what you call it, but it was like a barn truck that like carries cattle and whatnot, stopped and my sister talked to them for a little bit. And they agreed to take us to this town. Totally sketchy at this point. It was probably like 10 o'clock at night, we were gonna sit in the back of this truck. Like not only again, are the roads dangerous, but also like no seatbelts, you know, windy roads going up a mountain, you know, nothing to be worried about, right? And my sister was like, We can do this, but there's one catch, there's a dead body in the back. And I was like, What the hell? So it's actually not as bad as it sounds. She was like, but I think it's pretty safe because the back of the truck is just so in Africa, like women who are maybe like 40s or maybe 30 and above or just referred to as mamas collectively. She was like, it's just a bunch of Mama's and their children. And I was like, okay, with his dead body. Okay, so turns out they're going to a funeral and had the body with them had the body I'm just like, wrapped in a, like, it wasn't even a coffin like you could see the shape of it. It was like in a, like a, like a shawl or whatever. And so, I mean, it was so uncomfortable. It was freezing. I don't remember how long the ride was a few hours, I think at least know the night like we got there. And we did like everything that like all the guidebooks say not to do while just in general driving or traveling, but like specifically like in Africa. And it was just, but we made it and it was great. We got on the boat went to this island. It was fun. But it was it was funny because like at that point in my like I had traveled I've been a globetrotter for many, many years I hitchhike and other places. So like, you know, but also I was like a poor college student or a poor grad student. And so that was just kind of like the life and at this point, I was like, I'm too old to do this. Like I'm not doing I'm not traveling like this anymore. Like this is fine. But like I'm just not doing this like over it. Totally. Anxiety was through the roof.

Unknown: 6:34

Oh, my goodness and Your poor mother. Like both of her kids or two of her kids. I don't know how many siblings you have. But you were just checking with dead bodies in Tanzania. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 6:45

but it gives you a great story.

Veronica Grant: 6:47

Yeah, yeah. And it was a great visit. It's a beautiful country. I loved it. But that was definitely not super fun. At the moment. Now, it's a good story for the time, not not a good moment.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 6:58

Yes, I totally hear you. Well, Veronica, you talk a lot about this, this culture that we're in, swipe left swipe right, and the impact that that's having on us and our relationship. So how is this a an area that you got interested in? What's your story that led you to where you are now?

Veronica Grant: 7:19

Yeah. So I mean, do we have a few hours I'm just getting the the quick story really is I kind of got into specifically relationship in dating coaching kind of in a roundabout way. So my whole life I had been actually really into fitness and health and yoga. And I will admit, definitely not in the most healthy ways. Like I've you know, dealt with like being on and off the diet train and not default eating disorder, but certainly disordered eating. And then I had finally gotten to a point in my life where I healed a lot of that. And I was like, Yeah, I'm not interested in counting and dieting constantly. And, you know, I just, I was God over it. And so at the same time, though, I was still in the wellness industry, I was teaching fitness classes and yoga classes. And my students would come to like, my spinning classes and kickboxing, and like, oh, Veronica, I had this Sunday last night, so worked me hard. Like, they basically wanted me to punish them, and do like a really hard workout because they had a brownie last night. And I had gotten to a point in my own, you know, journey in my own life where I was like, that's how I want my students to think about working out and moving their bodies. And so, so I thought, okay, how can I, you know, I didn't even know about health coaching. But I was talking about one of my friends, and I was talking about how I wanted to be in the industry full time, just like, why don't you do health coaching, and I had no idea what it was. And so one thing led to another, and then, you know, there wasn't a program, we got certified, blah, blah, blah. And it didn't take that long in that business for me to realize, like, I didn't actually care that much about what people ate, or whether or not they worked out or how they worked out. Like I wanted them to take care of their bodies, but I was more interested in was how they related to themselves and how they treated themselves. And along the same lines, I was also getting a lot of feedback from people being like, well, Veronica, I just want to lose weight, so that I can feel more confident in dating, or I don't want to date when I look like this or when I feel like this. And and so that was in my mind. And then at the same time I've been working, you know, through my own stuff with my own coach. And she had helped me see how my struggles in dating actually, were very closely related to my struggles with my body. And I really only became in a place where I was emotionally available to have the relationship that I wanted. When I stopped the extreme dieting because like the dieting and obsessing around calories and food and all that kind of stuff, were really just a way for me to feel good about myself and to feel worthy. Like, oh, if I'm at this weight, then I'll feel good enough. And my relationship with men was very much the same thing. Oh, if this guy likes me back then I'll feel good enough. Like doesn't matter how I feel. But if he likes me back then that's great. And so by healing my relationship with food in my body, I also accidentally healed a lot of what was going on in my love life. And so when I realized how powerfully the two are intertwined in my own life, I realized that this is actually what I wanted to talk about. Like I also have always loved love. I know it's kind of like a cliche, I really think to say but it's really true. I love like reality shows I love rom coms. I love it all. And I just, I just feel way more passionate about, you know, this specific area of life more than more than the other, although I do think they are intertwined. But that's basically how I got into the work that I do today.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 10:48

I love it. When you think about this mindset that we get into, if I can only have this like if I eat perfectly or if this person likes me back or or all of that, where do you think fundamentally that is coming from.

Veronica Grant: 11:05

So that is coming from how you learn to feel love, safety or belonging. So love, safety, and belonging are things that all humans need to feel who are functioning normally. And, and so there were times in your life where you didn't feel love, safety and belonging. So for some people that might be very acute and very obvious. So I'm talking, you know, untimely deaths, abuse, trauma, divorce, like anything along those lines, like, they'll definitely be of times where you didn't feel loved safety and belonging. But this is true of everyone, even if you didn't experience acute trauma in your childhood, maybe it was just, your mom wasn't really able to meet your needs emotionally, like maybe you had these big emotions, and she was a more reserved person. And so you never really felt like you belonged in the family, or that you never really felt safe sharing how you felt just because like she didn't know how to handle it or whatever. So, so these things can, these experiences can create stories in your head of like, oh, well, in order to feel like I belong, or in order to feel like my mom loves me, then I need to Just act normal, I need to shut down my feelings and not worry about it and just, you know, worry about the family and other people and keep my focus somewhere else, you know what I mean? And so that just becomes the way in which you see the world and the way in which you learn to receive love, safety and or fuel of safety and belonging. And and then without that getting looked at and unpacked and healed. When you're an adult, let's say you're wanting to be in a relationship, you might feel something. Sometimes it might be anger, because someone did something wrong or crossed the boundary, or it might even be love or other kinds of feelings. But you're scared to show that you don't want to show that because you've learned like, oh, I need to just, you know, hide that part of me. Because otherwise I might scare them off, or I might be too much. And so we have to go back to those old parts of ourselves where we learned, how do we feel loved? How do we feel like we belong? How do we feel safe? And then really look at okay, is that behavior reflective of how I want to live my life? Is it reflective of what's actually true? Maybe it was true, when you were eight years old, that you had to kind of shut yourself down to, you know, get along with your mom or whatever, but you're not eight years old anymore, you're not living at your mom's house. And so you can experience the world, and relationships in a different way. So no one was born, like being a people pleaser, no one was born, you know, thinking they're too much or too fat or whatever. These are all learned behaviors. And so we just have to go back and look at okay, where are the times when I didn't feel like I was loved safe? Or like I belong? And then what behaviors that I create from those experiences?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 13:48

How difficult Do you think it is for people to? So I guess there's two parts to this. So the first one is for them to take the time and space to go back and think about when did I first feel that? What were the ways that I responded to it then? And then the second part is how difficult is it for them to change that reaction?

Veronica Grant: 14:14

Yeah, so I think some it's hard because I think different people are wired to like personal development more than others. I think there is a reason why, you know, seven texts to get him to love you or see you as wife material. I think there's a reason. I mean, first of all, I'm very curious. I would love to know what those Tech Stars because like, what could they possibly be? I'm so interested. So I don't like of course, of course, like they provoke curiosity. But I also think that we kind of just want the easy button. And that's the that's the world we live in. Especially even I think it's the world we've always kind of lived in, but even more so with like, social media and like Uber Eats and like I can have anything I want in like 20 minutes or Amazon, you know, or whatever. So it's probably gotten harder or worse to like, kind of get out of that mindset of like, Oh, easy button strategy, or easy button fix. So I don't know if it's like the culture that we live into. Sometimes we have to deprogram or unhook ourselves from from that. I don't think that this work is as daunting or as hard as we think it is. At the beginning. It's kind of like when you're about to like jump into a pool. They're like, Oh my god, it's so cold. It's gonna be so cold. And then you jump in, it's like, hold for a second like, okay, yeah, okay, it sounds so bad, it's fine. Now, that being said, there are, there are situations, there are people who have experienced, you know, like extreme trauma, like violence and abuse. And at least for the work that I'm talking about, like, I think that is a whole other level of one on one support probably was more of like clinical therapy, at least at the beginning of that healing process that probably needs to take place before we do the work that I I'm talking about here. But I don't think it's as as daunting, I would say the first step feels like it's easy. But then once you're in, you're like, Oh, it's so bad. I can deal I can deal with it.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 16:17

Can you share an example of maybe someone you've coached or even yourself, where they've identified like, what is one of those things I identified wasn't met when they were a kid and how it was unhealthily presenting itself, and then how they shifted it to have a more healthy response.

Veronica Grant: 16:35

Yeah, so I mean, I mean, I gave my very kind of quick story before, but I learned, you know, I wasn't born thinking, oh, I need to lose five more pounds. That was something that I learned from the feedback that I got from the women and my family, including my grandmother and my mom. And that's also the world that they lived in. So it wasn't like, Oh, I'm gonna be mean to Veronica, cuz I feel like calling her fat, it was more of, oh, I want to make sure that she's not bullied or that she'll be perceived as beautiful because that has all of these like, social implications. And so when I was looking or feeling skinnier, I usually got praise. And so I mistake I mistook that praise, for, for love. And for feeling included, and like I belong, and like I was good enough, and all of those things. And so that just became my main priority. I want to be skinny, and I want to make perfect grades. And I, you know, want to make sure I have like all these friends. And I remember when I was little, if I was home on a Friday night, like, I would just like, eat myself up inside, because it was just like, Oh my God, nobody likes me what's wrong with me, like it would really, like really bother me, it's like, really, really deep level. And so that was the way in which I related to two men, I just needed to get their attention, I needed to get some them to like me, I just needed to get them to, you know, have some sort of physical chemistry with me. never even considered like, how do I feel? Or do our values align? Is this person what I want? Can they offer me what I want, it was none of that stuff, it was just like, can they make me feel how I need to feel because I'm not able to source that worthiness from from within. And so when I began to then, you know, do this inner child work and really look at my past and unpack my ability to not be able to manage emotions, learn how to manage my emotions, and, and feel connected with people in ways that were more deep and meaningful, then I was able to, you know, it's not like you're gonna ironclad yourself, like you're still, rejection is always part of a path, part of the game. It's possible at any point, you know, disappointment, anger, all of those things, we can't totally cut ourselves off from potentially feeling those things. But I was able to get to a point where, if someone's gonna like me back, or if a relationship went south, or not the way it was hoping or whatever, sure, it would hurt, I would be disappointed, but it wasn't like, like this. You know, I just remember when I was dating, when my worthiness was tied to whether or not they like to back like those days, when I just didn't feel like I was getting the validation from them. Like it was it was impossible to go to bed. You know, like, I didn't want to do the work that I wanted to do. Because my my identity, my worth, everything was just wrapped up in that. And so, once I got to a place where I can enjoy dating, it was really just a process of like, Do I like you? Do you like me? Would we be a fit like dating became fun, doesn't mean that wasn't a that doesn't mean there weren't more rejections or more disappointments. But my worthiness wasn't wrapped up in it. And, and that is just I don't know, it's worth doing because living the other way is just miserable.

Unknown: 19:49

Absolutely.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 19:50

I hear that you talk about this concept of dating yourself first. So what are some ways that people can can do that focus on I'm gonna date myself first.

Veronica Grant: 20:02

So I think the most important thing here when you think about dating yourself is treating yourself how you want to be treated. And, and I know some people like oh, well, you know, I treat myself great. Like I go to the gym and whatever and I eat healthy food. But I want to go, I would challenge people to go a layer deeper. And what I'm really interested in is the way we talk to ourselves. And, and so if you talk to yourself in a way of like, where you kind of beat yourself up when you make mistakes or when you do something wrong, is that how you want your partner to talk to you or treat you when you make a mistake or or do something wrong? Or if you're constantly criticizing yourself or like have these massive expectations of yourself that are like near perfection that you can never reach? Like, do you want to be with a partner like that? And so I think that when we're able to treat ourselves more compassionately, and like, okay, yeah, we made a mistake, okay, that's fine. Or, okay, we're gonna eat this whole pizza, and like, we'll be totally fine, like, you're gonna wake up tomorrow, and everything's gonna be just fine, the sun will still rise. And when we can just treat ourselves like that, then what I find what we're able to do is when we are dating, we're much better equipped to generate how we want to feel without needing to get that from the other person. And it's not that the other person shouldn't make you feel happy or fulfilled, or all the other things that you want to feel from a partnership, but they can't be your sole source of it, because of their sole source of feeling happy or whatever, then you're setting yourself up probably for disappointment, but also you're setting yourself up for definitely a lot of ups and downs in in your relationship. And so when you date yourself, and specifically when it talks about, like when I talk about, like how you treat yourself and how you talk to yourself, you're probably not going to be feeling as much like crap, you'll probably be feeling more fulfilled, less lonely, probably a little bit more happy. And then you can actually bring those things to the relationship. And the cool thing is, is that when you bring how you want to feel to the relationship, rather than need to get it from the other person, you actually get those feelings back tenfold.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 22:16

I love what you said about treat yourself the way that you want others to treat you. Because what we typically say is treat others the way you want to be treated. And while that has some validity to it, there's still this this part of it of Yeah, but am I saying the things to myself that I would expect my husband or my boyfriend or significant other to say to me, like, am I giving myself the same grace, love compassion. I love this, I'm gonna have to sit on it for for a while. But I think it's great.

Veronica Grant: 22:51

And what I what I also like about treat yourself the way you would be treated as when you talk about that the flip statement, which is treat others the way you want to be treated, when you think about it, if you're really unpack that, that can actually be kind of like an unhealthy way to live, if you already have people pleasing tendencies, right? Because like, let's say someone's treating you like dirt or not really honoring your boundaries, you might still want to be quote unquote, nice to them. But is that really gonna? Is that really what you want? Is that really the kind of person you want in your life or the relationship you want? And so so that mean, that's why I'm just really into like out, treat yourself having to be treated focus on you focus on what how you want to feel focus on what you want. And then and then ask for it, and then go get it. And that doesn't mean, well, yeah, I guess me. I think some people were like, Oh, well, I'm being selfish, well, maybe it doesn't mean you're being selfish, because no one else is gonna, like have you as their number one priority. And I think that we can just really own like, Yeah, I'm looking out for myself, I'm being selfish. However, that doesn't mean you're just like bulldozing over other people, because everyone has their own boundaries. But when we know where boundaries are with ourselves with other people, then we can actually be in healthier partnership, because it's like, you know where to step you know, think about like, like, if you were doing like a salsa or a tango dance, like if you just were there and the other person was there, you'd be stepping on each other's toes and like missing each other constantly. But like, if you know exactly where you're supposed to go, and the other person knows where they're supposed to go, then like you have this beautiful dance. And so if your partner is taking care of themselves, and you are taking care of yourself, and you're clear on what you want, how you want to feel and where your boundaries are, and your partner can do the same, then you're going to be able to have healthy communication, healthy boundaries, and then just have this beautiful dance of a partnership. Otherwise, it's just if you're like carrying on their load, or you're expecting them to carry your load, or whatever it is, then it's just gonna get messy and it's not gonna be great. What are some tips

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 24:52

for after you're in the relationship and continuing to check yourself to make sure you don't go back into that into that mindset of wanting them to make you happy or finding yourself worth coming from the other person you're in the relationship with?

Veronica Grant: 25:09

Yeah, so I mean, this really gets into inner child work, which is the main tool that I use with with clients and you know, healing like the old stuff of where love safety and blogging came from. And so, I think that when you're in a conflict with your partner, or when or when just something feels off or when you're needing something from them or whatever it is. is, then you have to use the tool of discernment. And you have to figure out, okay, I'm, I'm 100% responsible for my 50%. And my partner is 100% responsible for their 50%. And so then you just have to determine, Okay, this thing that I need? Is this something that's on my 50%? That it's actually my own stuff? Or is it something that I'm not getting from my partner, and that there actually needs to be a conversation so we can create a set of agreements. And you know, where that line is, certainly will be different for different people, because different people want different kinds of relationships. But let's say you just need like constant validation from your partner that, you know, of how they how they feel. Obviously, like, I think it is important to, to hear how your partner feels, and you know, us love you and other whatever your love languages, I think that is important and in a relationship. But again, this is where the discernment has to go, there has to be a healthy and reasonable amount of the love language, or whatever it is in your relationship without like the constant like reassurance. So if it's the constant reassurance, and that's where you're thinking, Yeah, that's really what it's about, then, what you have to do is you have to like, Okay, what is going on inside of me? Why am I needing to get constant reassurance? Why can't I feel secure in the relationship that we have, there could be a couple of reasons for it. One, it really could be an inner child wound that you have to look at and address and then heal your own, on your own with doing the inner child work. It could be, it could also just be like a gut instinct that like, this person's not going to be able to give you what you need, and then you got to get out. And usually people don't want that answer. But that could also be a possibility, I'm not saying it is. But you just have to use your discernment. Inner Child work will help you figure out where that line is for you. Because ultimately, inner child work just asks you to re get back in tune with what your emotional needs are, and getting them met. Because remember, you know, in the examples that I gave earlier, in our, in our chat, you know, our core wounding is basically, some version of our emotional needs not getting met, right, we didn't have the space to share how we feel or ask for what we needed, or we had to tiptoe around our house growing up, or whatever it was. So there was some experience where your emotional needs weren't met. And so you just have to, so when you do the inner child work, then you basically are fulfilling those emotional needs for yourself. And so then when you're an adult in the relationship, you have to determine Okay, is this the inner child wound coming up? Or is it just a real lack in the relationship that either just means I need to leave or that I need to address?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 28:25

Do you have? Like a question that you ask people that gets them to think about that inner child wound? Like, I think I've heard some, I can't remember which forms of therapy it is. But you know, there maybe it's narrative therapy, where one of those key questions that they ask people is, what does little Kimberly need, like, what would six year old Kimberly need? And it kind of triggers people to think back to things that might have happened when they were that certain age and what they needed that they didn't get? Do you have a question like that, that you use to help people uncover these things?

Veronica Grant: 29:06

Yeah, I like that question a lot. So generally, what I'll do is if someone is feeling there's a couple ways I'll do it. So if someone is actually in a, in an emotional state, where they're feeling triggered in some way in the relationship, no matter what's going on, then I'll just have them close their eyes. And I'll just say, Okay, where do you feel that in your body? What's the emotion that you feel? How strongly do you feel it does it? So I'll have a named emotion like, Oh, I feel sad, or I feel alone. But then I'm like, okay, but where do you feel your body? And how's it feel? Does it feel like someone's like gripping your stomach? Does it feel like butterflies? Does it feel like prickly feeling something else? And then I'll say, Okay, what does that remind you of? or, or? Or, or what situation does this remind you of? Or when have you felt like this before? or what have you experienced this before? And then I'll have out usually go from there. Sometimes I might say like, if we're talking more about a specific relationship and where they may not be acutely in an emotional situation, I might say, Who does this person remind you of? Like, what is the dynamic of the relationship reminds you of or does this person actually like remind you to they have characteristics or mannerisms? Or like emotional ways of being that reminds you of like, usually or mom or dad, but it could be another, you know, adult from from childhood. So that's usually how I approach it. The the final thing is that people are still kind of coming up, like, nothing's really coming up for me, then what I'll say is, or what I'll ask is, I'll say, Okay, what's the core belief that you have that? You know, what's the core belief you have about your love life? Not like an aspirational affirmation type of thing. Like, I deserve love. Like, I'm not talking about that I'm talking about, like, when you're on the apps, and you're stressed out about no one being there, or whatever, what's the thought that dominates your mind? So maybe that thought is, you know, there aren't enough, you know, men, or no, no, like me, or I'm too fat, or I missed my chance, or whatever it is. So whatever that thought is, I'll say, Okay, where did you hear that? Or where? What does that remind you of? What does that remind you of? Or what time in your life is that remind you of because even if you were five years old, you probably your parent probably didn't say, you know, there aren't enough men, because that's not really the context of like, the, what a world is experiencing. But they might have been told, you know, you, you, you have to get ahead. And you have to, you know, just look a certain way, you have to be skinny, and you have to, like, really just do everything and be perfect. So that, you know, your teacher will like you or so that you can have friends. And so that can get translated as, oh, I need to look a certain way, I need to be 10 pounds lighter, I need to I need to be like or at least look 10 years younger, or whatever, in order to get a man to like me. So it may not be the exact same message, like word for word, but it can be like the essence can still be the same. That was just something that was talked about or believed in the family that you grew up in. Hmm.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 32:32

This next question might seem a little strange, but I so I am not familiar, nor do the people I work with. Talk about dating apps like this is something that came out after I was married and has blown up since I've, since I've been married. So it's this crazy world to me. Do you think that the this I don't even know what to call it like the rise of dating apps has been helpful for dating culture? That's question number one. Question number two is? And do you see these dating apps and the accessibility to possibly finding other partners affecting people wanting to become committed to relationships?

Veronica Grant: 33:22

So I have lots of lots of feelings about dating apps. Here's, here's what I'll say, though. Oh, I get a million emails in my inbox, DMS, whatever, with people basically. Not necessarily saying it word for word, but basically saying that, like dating apps is the reason why they're single is a huge problem. And they have to deal with this and this and this and this. And I'm like, Okay, I don't know how old you are. I don't know how long you've been dating. But let's just make a guess here. match.com came around in 1995. Now I know like, things never really exploded until like the 2010 or so with like, tender and win and whatnot. But like online dating in some way has been around since 1995. Just Is it true that before 1995 Dating was totally fine, totally easy. No stress. Like, no, that's just, I wasn't dating before 95. I mean, like I was like, in between kind of ways, but not an adult kind of way. But I just don't buy it like it's not true. It's not true. And so, I think that online dating can be a great way to meet somebody, if you don't have a lot of time, if you're more introverted, and just don't want to go to a bunch of things where you may or may not meet somebody. And I also think it's great if you're if you're like a single parent, and you just can't necessarily leave your house anytime you want. But you still want to be able to meet people. I think the problem comes with online dating is, is more about how you relate to it. So if like, if you're on online dating, and you're messing with someone and they are either just like an endless pen pal, or they're getting straight to like sexual texts that are unsolicited and that you didn't consent to. A lot of times I find that women feel like they just have to well, that's just that's just how it is. You just have to like deal with this. You have to, you know, and eventually you'll find your person and I'm like, No, that's not how you deal with it. So the way I like to think about it is how can you I'm relate to, or how can you treat online dating experiences the same way you would meet someone in person. So for example, if you were at a bar, and someone started coming up to you, and they started to talk really sexual, and made you really uncomfortable, what would you do? You would probably be like, wow, this person I just met literally five seconds ago, like is being super sexual. And it's really weird, you would probably remove yourself from the situation like that seems normal. Except that when it that same thing happens online, for some reason, we think, Oh, well, I don't know, maybe this is what guys want, maybe this is normal, maybe I have to deal with this. And so then like, so then you deal with it, and then it's horrible. And then online dating becomes horrible. Where the correct response, if that's not what you want, is to just block and move on. Like, you don't have to, like police their behavior, you don't have to reprimand them, you don't have to, like, make a bunch of drama and tell your friends about how shitty this person was. Just delete, block and move on. Because like, you don't have that much energetic, you know, bandwidth and emotional bandwidth. So like, you don't need these people taking it out, you just block and move on. So my, you know, kind of, like discerning question that I have my clients think about is, if someone's making them feel uncomfortable that they're meeting online, if this were translated to a person to person, real life experience, would this be okay? And if the answer is no, then it's an immediate blockage just don't even think about it. It's like do not collect go to not collect$100 and just move on. So that's the first thing I would say the other thing that I would say is, what is it the not calm, like a marriage website, whatever, did a survey in 2019. So I'm sure it's a little different. Now, obviously, with there being a pandemic between 2019. And now. But basically, what they found is 22% of couples reported to have to have met their significant other on an app on online dating. And so while that's the number one way, you know, of all the categories, 22% was the largest. When you think about it, it's still actually minority, because all the other ways were various ways of in person encounters. And so that's still almost three quarters, or over three quarters of how people are meeting people. And so I think that if you're going to online date, you have to think of it as this is one way, when you think of it as online dating and dating and being synonymous, then you're really going to get yourself into trouble. Because if you aren't meeting anyone, or if you're having these crappy experiences on the apps, then it's not just that you're having a crappy experience on the app, it's just that, oh, my gods is dating, and I can't meet anybody, this is what it's like, and then you just kind of get into this tailspin, and you spiral from there. But if it's just one way, you can meet someone, but then there's like, a bunch of other ways that you can meet someone that definitely have a different experience and feel in different timeline for sure. Then, then I think that your dating efforts should reflect that. And if you're only going to be focused on the apps, then just, then that's a choice that you're making, and you can do whatever you want, that's fine. But I think then you have to have really firm boundaries around what kind of behavior you accept, what kind of behaviors you don't accept. And then, and then go from there. And then, the very last thing I will say about online dating is my philosophy is shit or get off the pot. So if someone is, if you if you're interested in someone, forget about like, oh, he has asked me like, whatever, make it obvious, just like, oh, I have to tell you that over drinks. You know, like, if you don't want to do the actual asking, but whatever, just get off the app suggested meet up if they're unwilling to, or if they're being like, Oh, well, you know, I gotta check my schedule. Like just being non committal basically, like, just be done with it. Just be done with it. Because again, like if you were at a bar, and you met someone, and you were just talking, but the conversation was just kind of winding and wasn't really leading or didn't ask for your number or didn't say, Hey, do you want to go somewhere a little quieter where we can talk? Like, you'd be like, what are we doing here? We're just like, awkwardly talking for like, 20 minutes, like, you would expect there to be a next step. And so online dating is the same way. So if you're tired of doing all these pen pals, or texting pen pals for weeks, then don't freaking do it, if that's what you want to do them to what you want, but if that's not what you want, then then you know, put the ball in their court and say, hey, I want to meet you and if they're not interested, or if they're being wishy washy, then done. Don't even think about it. Blonde or Avon.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 40:26

Right. It makes so much sense and I was listening to one of Andrew Huberman podcasts. I don't know if you know who he is. But he does. These. He's a neuroscientist at Stanford. And he was talking about how how, how it is really smart to try and get to an in person meetup. As soon as is comfortable for both people. Because there's so many things that your like, senses pick up on, like, you smell and things that you see. And it was really crazy to hear the the neuroscience of it. And that kind of dictates attraction that's taken away, or at least, not taken into consideration, when you're just talking online until you meet that person. Just fascinating.

Veronica Grant: 41:11

Yeah. And, and, you know, even like, if your time is constructed, or if you are a single parent, you know, even if it means like a phone call before you before you meet up or, or if you feel more comfortable like that will while you may not be able to pick up on the things that this guy was talking about, from a phone call or video call, it still tells you like, okay, are they willing to move this interaction forward? Right, and it can give you all the information that you need to know. Because if they're not interested, or willing to get on the phone, or FaceTime or whatever with you, then like, they're probably not that interested. Or whether it's interested in you are really more likely interested in a relationship in general, and then just move on. Right?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 41:55

And to bring it back full circle. So what is one thing you would tell people when the people on the dating apps haven't been responsive? Haven't been interested? How would you say and encourage them that their worth isn't in that and encourage them to stay optimistic?

Veronica Grant: 42:14

Well, I do actually think that if you're unable to separate your worth, from how many messages or people are writing you back, then I do think it's wise to take a break. You know, like, it is, at the end of the day, dating apps are a form of social media. And I don't understand all the way social media is made on the back end, but I do know that it is designed to be addictive, it is designed to want those little dings in the little numbers and the hearts and whatever. And so I don't think that you aren't meant to be superhuman, and I do think that it can wear on you just like Instagram can wear on on somebody, you know, by just constantly, like how many DMS do I have? How many likes do I have? How many comments or whatever. And so I think that if you are finding that you're getting really, really wrapped up in that, and it's really beginning to affect you, I would recommend just taking a break. There's nothing wrong with that, and then come back to it in a day or a week or a month, or never if you don't want to online date, there's other ways to, to, to meet people and and I think that I do you find that we're more likely to tie our worthiness to how many messages we have, or interest we have or whatever, when we have inner child wounding where we've learned to outsource how we feel love, safety and belonging. And also, we're more likely to do it when online dating is like the end all be all in terms of meeting people. And I know this is probably like a whole other conversation. But like you can meet people however you want to meet people. And I think when I say I think when people are I think when I talk about meeting people off the apps, people are like, well, all my friends are, you know, coupled or I don't go that many things or I don't meet anyone or whatever. I mean, I think I think sometimes there's like a little bit of extra effort that you have to put in and might be a little more difficult for my introverted listeners, I'm pretty introverted myself. But one thing that I talk about a lot is that it's not necessarily you know, when you're dating off the apps, and you're you're dating in person, or looking for someone in person, you know, when you're on the apps or like, the idea is that everyone there is single and everyone is looking to meet someone potentially for a romantic partnership. Obviously, when you go to like a bar or a networking event or like a hiking meetup, that's not necessarily the intent, right? So it's not so much about looking for a single person when you when you go to these offline events. It's more about how can you expand your network because, you know, going back to the not.com study that I referenced, you know, the the other ways that people met people were through work through friends, neighbors, through classes, through chance encounters, things like that. And so when you add up all those other ways that ended up being about 78% of couples, how they meet people, so even if you go to a meetup event or a networking event, or a church thing or whatever, you may not meet your person, but you might make A new friend. And maybe you become friends with that person, and then maybe they invite you to something, and then you meet someone else. And then maybe they invite you to something. And then that's where you meet your person. You know what I mean? So right, me dating off the apps is certainly a different kind of mindset. And it's a, usually it's a longer term. I don't like to use game speech, but it's like a longer term strategy, it's just different way to approach it. But I do think that if you approach offline dating with like, Alright, I'm going to this meetup and there better be a single person, my age there, and if there's not, then you're going to be disappointed, and the chances are, there's not going to be, but you can meet a new friend. And maybe not always, but a lot of times you can meet a new friend, and you never know what that connection will take you. And, and again, like, this goes back to like not rapping, your worthiness, like if if something falls flat, like it's okay, like it happens. And when you can be nice to yourself, when you can talk to yourself nicely when you can really tend to your inner child that she doesn't wrap up her feelings of love, safety and belonging, whatever encounter you just had, then dating is just so much easier.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 46:38

Mm hmm. I love that. Veronica, where can our listeners follow you find out more about what you do?

Veronica Grant: 46:46

Yeah, so I have a podcast as well called the love life connection, where I coach listeners on doing inner child work in, you know, and with their love life, so you can kind of see it in action. I also have a book called you are meant for love. And depending on when this podcast airs, it'll be either a pre order or available. Where I think, yeah, I talked a little a lot more about inner child work and how you can apply it to your love life. And then I have an assessment called the emotional availability assessment where you assess your emotional availability. And then you know, depending on your results, I give you some next steps and tips on what to do to become more emotionally available so that you can attract and then also be in the kind of relationship that I think your listeners probably want to be in. And you can grab that at Veronica grants.com, forward slash assessment.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 47:40

Awesome. We'll also have all of those in the show notes. For those of you who are listening, and if not, then remember Veronica grant calm, and it's pretty easy to access from your homepage. Actually, I remember seeing it earlier today. Yeah, for the for the assessment. So that's fantastic. Thank you, Veronica, I appreciate having you on.

Veronica Grant: 47:58

Thanks so much for having me,

Kimberly Beam Holmes: 47:59

this has been fun. Veronica reminds us in this conversation that we as humans all long for three things we long for love, we long for safety, we long for belonging. Now, those aren't the only three things necessarily, but they are three big ones. And the question that we come to, as we're thinking of this is, how in your life, are you currently seeking out those things? How are you seeking out love? belonging? Safety? Are you trying to get it from the relationships? Are you trying to scrounge for it? Or are you allowing yourself to give yourself what you need? Are you waiting for it to come from someone else? Or are you doing anything to proactively seek it? One of my favorite quotes from this interview was when Veronica said treat yourself the way you want others to treat you. Why do we have to wait for someone to compliment us? For someone to give us the time off for someone to give us permission to do something for ourselves? No, we can do that now for ourselves. And for me, the biggest way that I'm working on this and that this is showing up in my life is say the things to myself that maybe I want to hear from someone else. Say the things to myself like, you look good today. You've been trying hard, you are smart, you are worth it. You are you are you are you are strong, right, as I'm coming out of this foot injury that I've been dealing with for three and a half months. I'm getting stronger. And yes, it's nice when I go to physical therapy and my physical therapist and the group that I work with there, says that and encourages me, but I don't have to wait for them to say it. I can say it to myself and it be just as true. The other key point here is to realize and remember that experiences create stories in your head. Go back to some of the things you've experienced in your life and ask yourself what are the stories that I'm telling myself? I've shared before in the podcast several several episodes go I think on the one that I did with Dr. Carol Dorsa on overcoming trauma, which is a great episode we'll link to in the show notes. So powerful. my conversation with her was the first time I admitted to myself that I actually had experienced little T trauma. In my early adolescence, when I experienced a just several different situations with a person who was in my life at that time, who did and said things to me that I felt overwhelmed and powerless, which is the definition of trauma. And I, I created a story in my head that I couldn't, I couldn't trust myself, because at the time, I was young, and I felt like it was wrong, and it shouldn't be happening. But I also felt like this person should, like they were older than me, they should know better. So maybe I'm wrong. And for a long time, it felt like my voice was taken, like, I mean, for probably 15 or 20 years. It I would literally feel like my throat would catch when I was in a situation where I felt like I was right. But I was wondering if I was wrong. And so it took a lot of deep work, a lot of therapy, going to EMDR working through these stories, we tell ourselves the stories, I was telling myself to realize that I do have a voice and I can trust it. So what is that for you? And even the question she asks is in order for me to feel loved than I need to what? What is it you need to do? These are great places to just start as we are looking to grow in loving ourselves and trusting ourselves more. So the first key is to remember we we want love, we want safety, we want belonging. How are you providing that for you right now, that second point is to remember to treat yourself the way that you want others to treat you. You have permission to do that. And then the third as a recap is our experiences create the stories that we have in our head. So a great question to ask yourself is in order for me to feel loved right now, I need to fill in the blank. This I actually did this last night I was stressed out about something because actually two nights ago and and I realized I want to go just like binge eat right now because I'm so stressed. But what I need is to go and hug someone. And Rob was sitting on the couch. So I just went up, sat beside him and said I just need you to hug me right now. Because that's what I needed. This can be something you ask yourself on a daily basis, even as a proactive way to check in instead of a reactive way. I'd love to know what you think of this episode, share it with a friend who you believe needs it. And we'll see you next week on it starts with attraction