Overcoming Anxiety And OCD with Jon Seidl

"You are not powerless against anxiety. And you are not alone."

This is what we talk about in today's episode of It Starts With Attraction with our guest Jon Seidl. For the last decade, Jonathon M. Seidl (Jon) has been telling stories. In fact he’s written over 6,000 of them, first after helping start a top-50 news site, then as the editor-in-chief of the popular non-profit I Am Second, and most recently as the head of a special digital media product for actor Kirk Cameron. He now runs his own digital media consulting and content creation firm called The Veritas Creative. Jon has seen how the power of storytelling can transform people, businesses, and culture, especially after sharing his own story of battling anxiety and OCD. His passion is to help people with mental health struggles, while also sharing what he’s learned telling stories for — and working with — some of media’s biggest names and organizations, including Glenn Beck, Kirk Cameron, and Chip and Joanna Gaines.

His book on anxiety, “Finding Rest,” released on September 28, 2021 and instantly became a #1 Amazon bestseller, toping the charts in several categories like anxieties and phobias, mood disorders, and obsessive compulsive disorder. In fact, it shot up to become the #17 new release on all of Amazon and became a top 100 bestseller on all of Amazon as well.


Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships

Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.

Website: www.kimberlybeamholmes.com

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Transcript

0:30

There's a process to falling in love. And it starts with attraction. Join Kimberly beam homes and our special guests as they discuss how to become the most attractive you can be physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually, or as we refer to it, working on your pies will teach you how to have better relationships and become more attracted to others, and maybe more importantly, to yourself. It starts with attraction. And it starts now I am really excited to be joined today by John Seidel. He is first of all, done a lot of stuff. I was reading his bio, and I'm like Gao Lee, this guy has been around the block and done some amazing things. He's worked with Kirk Cameron on the courage he served in the nonprofit as editor in chief for I Am Second, which I'm sure many of the listeners have heard about. But He's also worked as being the managing editor of the blaze.com and national news website that many of you have heard of, I am sure but he's also been on Fox News. And many other things was apparently just on the Mike Huckabee show. We were just chatting about that just a minute ago. But we're going to be talking about something that he has discovered. Just a couple of years ago, the first time you opened up, John, about mental health and your experience with mental health. So tell us more about that. What what does that journey look like for you? Yeah, you know, it's funny when I was first getting into into writing and journalism and all that kind of thing. Like, I never, I never figured I'd like become the mental health guy. I'm so honored to become the mental health guy and the anxiety and OCD guy. But that's not something I you know, I really set out to do and become and so, you know, I always knew there was something a little different about me growing up, just just, you know, certain things that I would ruminate on, that I just couldn't get out of my head. And that just kind of stayed with me and I kind of joke, you know, I have no idea how I made it through high school and in college, especially as someone with that was later diagnosed with anxiety and OCD. I went to college in New York City, right, like just a very frenetically paced place. And it wasn't until, you know, a few years into my marriage, where, you know, our spouses have a way of kind of drawing things out of us. And my wife, you know, there was, there was a time we were we were living in downtown Dallas, and we were gonna go for a walk and I was part of my OCD manifests in the fact that like, I don't like Splenda, right, like I just, I just cannot stand the taste of Splenda. And so my wife and I go to this coffee shop and and she's gonna grab the coffee, I run to the bathroom. I said, Hey, just just reminder, like, don't make sure there's no Splenda in it. Yeah, yeah, I got it. So I come back, and she hands me my coffee. And I take a sip. And they're Splenda in it. It's like one of those classic like spit takes, you know, and it just it ruined my day, I got upset, I got angry, I couldn't really even fully explain why I got upset or angry. And for the entire weekend, it was just ruined. And so my wife is I remember sitting across, we had this loft apartment, and she was sitting across to me just broken down. And she's like, John, like, this is not normal. Like, you know, I'm not leaving, but like, we got to figure something out, you know. And so when you see the person you love, just really broken down in front of you, it kind of causes you to reevaluate things. And so I, I booked an appointment with the first psychiatrist that had an opening, which was like two weeks later. And so if you want to find out if you have anxiety and OCD, have to wait two weeks until you have to find out if you have anxiety, and OCD and just watch what happens. That's it. Yeah, that little time. And so sure enough, I mean, I start talking to him. And he's like, you know, Mr. Seidel, you have a classic case of, or we call God generalized anxiety disorder with with OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. And so that was that was when I was first diagnosed. And it was, it was actually one of the most freeing days of my life, you know, kind of describe it, like, you know, before then it's, it's like, I was in a dark room, and the lights were off. And I knew there was something there, but I couldn't see. And so I'm just kind of punching in the dark, you know. And when I got my diagnosis, it's like, the lights came on, I knew exactly what I was fighting. And I knew how to fight it right? Or at least started a journey to know how to fight it. And so even in my book, as I talked about this, you know, I talked about one of the first chapters is called call it by its name, and we get so much power over things when we name them, right. And so, I mean, it's biblical, like you can trace that through the Bible of of our first job was naming the animals, right. And it kind of showed our, the hierarchy of where we stood with things and how we had dominion over them. So that's kind of the quick version of my journey to getting diagnosed. And then I kind of from there, still still never, you know, once diagnosed, I kind of kept it hidden for a long time. Didn't really want to talk about it as much, you know, I was on medication didn't really talk about that, because of the stigma associated with it, and especially in the Christian circles. And, and then when I was working for him second, it was just like, you know, I wrote this article called, it's time to tell the world my secret. And and I did not just kind of open the floodgates in the response, I got the amount of people who kind of came out and said, Yeah, me too. And yes, I struggled with shame. And, you know, I've, I've kind of pushed aside medication, because I've been told it's, you know, I'm not having enough faith, or I'm not praying enough, or there's something wrong with me. That that is a punish this is a punishment of some sort. And that's when it really became obvious to me like, Hey, this is something I need to really be open about and talk about going forward. What is the lived experience of anxiety and OCD with you? So, you know, it can show up different ways in different people. But for you, how does it actually feel when you're experiencing it? Yeah, so I'll take both of them, I think. And let me just say this, everyone who has OCD has anxiety, not everyone who has anxiety has OCD, right? It's kind of like one of those classic word circles. And so for me, you know, anxiety, I kind of describe it as, like, if you're driving, and that light turns yellow, and you're pretty far back and you're like, you know what, I'm just gonna go for it, right, and you kind of gotten it. And it's like that. It's that fight or flight feeling that you get. And so, anxiety, especially on a clinical level is is really an overactive fight or flight response. So I get exposed to certain things, very innocuous things, things that would be nothing for someone, quote, unquote, normal. And yet my fight or flight response kicks in, I get that I get those butterflies, my heart starts racing, you know, I have Apple Watch on right. And I can literally track my heart, my heart rate, and I'm Oh, this feels weird. Let me check my Oh, yeah, you know, you're 85 beats per minute, you know, when you're supposed to be at 50. So, that's, that's how I describe the anxiety. The OCD for me, is, I think a lot of people associate that with like, obsessive checking, you know, like, Hey, I'm gonna check in make sure the doors are locked 75 times, or the Howie Mandel where it's like, I don't want to touch anyone. And, and that is a really popular form. But mine is called intrusive thought OCD. And so it's where I just can't get thoughts out of my head. So for example, before I got on medication, and started treating this, one of the ways that manifested, medicine manifests for me in a lot of self doubt. And so, for example, I would send an email to my boss, and I would reread that email upwards of 50 times, right, just just just looking for an error or a tone that I wasn't DAC communicate that well. And so, you know, you can imagine, I get home from work, I go and read it, reread an email 50 times I was losing a lot of time with my wife. Right. And, and my young family. And so that's, that's an example of how it's manifested with me. Another example is, you know, I was going to the grocery store one day, and I pull out and I kind of roll over something I don't know. And within minutes, I kind of convinced myself that I'd run someone over and I circled the block three or four times. So again, a lot of that self doubt, just looking for people taking pictures, looking for blood, you know, and come to find out that's actually a very popular fear for some people with my type of OCD, because I had people email me and say, Oh, I don't feel crazy, you know. So that's, that's how it's kind of manifested itself on a day to day basis. Yeah, that, yeah, I can totally see that. It adds an interesting layer to it as well. Just thinking about people like you where this is your like, this is the reality in your head, right? And so how can we empathize, be compassionate, and be supportive for people with that? Aren't my listeners know that I've I've struggled with anxiety since I was six years old. I don't have that OCD layer to it, but it's my husband never has. I mean, he can name probably the times he's been anxious in his life on both hands. And I'm like, I feel it every day. Right? Like, I don't know how you cannot have anxiety. Yeah. So you you talk about how can we show up for the people like How is your wife showing up for you? I don't even want Given the precursors to it, because I just want to hear, hear what your journey has been with that. Yeah, that's a it's a great question. And so, in fact, you know, we were talking off air is that in my book, I have a whole chapter dedicated just to helping spouses and loved ones that love people like me that love people like you, right? And so two things I'll say the first is, and I have this kind of helpful little chart in the book of like, what not to say and what to say, right. And so my wife has learned some of that the hard way. And so, you know, you've probably experienced this a lot, too. It's like, you know, don't, don't tell someone struggling with anxiety or OCD, just get over it right, or just stop thinking about it. It's like, Listen, if I could just stop thinking about it, I would like, the last thing I want to do is spend, you know, an hour rereading an email that I sent that I've already read 49 times. Okay. And so I think, how my wife has showed up to go back to that question is, she's, she's learned to be sensitive to to, and be careful to say the right things, right, and or at least avoid the wrong ones, you know. So I tell people just, you know, eliminate the word just from your vocabulary, right. And I just said, it, just eliminate the word just. But it's kind of like a big trigger for people like me. And I think the other thing, too, is to be willing to wade into this, you know, like, it again, if all of this made logical sense, I wouldn't be in this position. So listen, there are some days, you know, and in fact, I'll just be really open. We went out of town for the holiday weekend recently, and there was just there was one day, I just woke up in a funk, you know? And that happens, right? Because there are some times where depression hits. And, you know, my wife, she didn't try to fix it. Right? She didn't, she didn't try to like, come up with 75 different solutions. Like she just knew, like, Hey, listen, you just need to, I just need to kind of give you some space today. Right? And, and not gonna, I'm not, that's not letting you less, or like wallow in everything. But listen, I know that, like, if we got logic our way out of this. There's a magic formula magic thing we could do. Yeah, that'd be great. But there's not. And so she's just really given me space. And she's been willing to be uncomfortable, right. And so I think there's a difference between, you know, calling me to something better, which, you know, to my story happened very early on, where she's like, Listen, you gotta get help, and just given me some some space. And so I think those things of learning what to say what not to say, and then and then being okay with me being, you know, there been times where, listen, I'm just gonna go through some of this a little bit, and that's okay. And the good news is, whereas, you know, 567 years ago, an episode like that would last a week. Now, it's like, it could last a morning or an afternoon or a day, right, as I've continued to work on it and get the tools to fight back. Yeah. How proactive Have you been with your wife in kind of working together on what works best on how to approach you talk to you, support you when you're having when you're going through one of the hard episodes? Yeah, I mean, it's a daily, weekly monthly conversation with us, because you know, the other thing too, and I try to caution people against this, as well as like, there are general, there are general guidelines, and each person is different, but I never want to treat anything like a magic formula, right? And so, it's not like, every time I have an anxious episode, she's like, Oh, I know, I just do xy and z. I can she knows generally, what what to do and how to help me. But listen, there are some times where it's just like, Man, this is a little different, different beast today. So we're just we're constantly having an ongoing conversation, right? And so sometimes it's like, Hey, babe, I, you know, I need to I need to just go on a run right now. Right? Or, Hey, do you mind if I just run to the store and get some groceries, you know, like, I just need that time away? Or, hey, you know, I, I had a buddy come over last night after our long weekend. And, you know, I just needed some that, you know, that guide community time, you know, and we sat on the porch and had a cigar and it was great, you know? And so it's it's an ongoing conversation. And that's really at the basis of a lot what I talked about in the book, one of the things is community is really important and your your spouse is is some of your closest community. You're with them all the time. And so being open and talking about what that looks like is really important. Absolutely. And your book so it's called Finding rest a survivor's guide to navigate Eating the valleys of anxiety, faith and life. And people can find that on Amazon or probably wherever they want to purchase their book ever great books are sold as ever great books are sold. And you mentioned right before we got on, there's a whole chapter on how to support a loved one in your life that's going through anxiety or OCD. But I want to shift a little bit and talk about the faith aspect of it. So what have you seen the response be within people of faith good and or bad? of people with anxiety or struggling with anxiety or city? Yeah, I'll start off by saying, I think we've made progress recently, in the last I would say, two, three years. But you know, I actually grew up in a household that was very, I would say, clouded by the prosperity gospel of just like, if you do XY and Z, God will give you a, b and c. Right. And, and and if you have things you don't want, it's because you've done something right. You've kind of angered God, right? Or you haven't fulfilled what he's told you to do. Right. And so he kind of doles out some anxiety, right. And so I think that was what was really hard for me when I was first diagnosed, I talked about in the book, a conversation I had with my mom, that went awful, right, where my mom just did not, she was not supportive at first of me taking medication. You know, she, she chalked it up to not having enough faith that they were kind of unrepentant, maybe unrepentant sins in my life or things like that. And so, but here's the funny thing. And I, I tried to make this clear, it's like, well, I opened that up by saying this kind of a prosperity gospel type Vending Machine God, that those ideas have actually wormed their way into all sorts of denominations, right? It's no respect. It's not a Pentecostal, or a Baptist or a Presbyterian or, you know, Methodist thing, right? It's kind of that ideology is, is very prominent throughout. And so in fact, during COVID, I had a lot of conversations with pastors. And there was one in particular that I talked about in the book where he, he was struggling with anxiety for the first time in his life, which a lot of people were during COVID. And I started talking to him and asked him about going to see a counselor and getting on medication. And his response was, I just, I just, I think I just need to pray about it more, you know, and I'm like, No, that's the wrong thinking. So to your point, I think we've come we've come a long way, we still have a long way to go. I think there's not as much of an understanding of common grace. And that's what I call medication is medication is a common grace that the Lord has given to all of us. And, you know, I'm not going to disparage that common grace that he's given, just like he's given us the ability to taste food. And, you know, the Bible says, He makes it rain on the just and the unjust. Right? And so he gives medicine for the just and the unjust, right? And so he's given me that as a tool and a weapon to fight back. And, in fact, if you read in, in in Timothy, you know, Paul talks, Paul even prescribes Timothy a medication. Now, in his day, it was wine. But there's this verse where Timothy where he says to Timothy, he says, Listen, why don't you take a little wine for your, for your frequent, you know, stomach ailments. Now, I would not recommend wine for your stomach ailments, or your anxiety or OCD right now. But the idea was, it's so fascinating to see that like, here's Paul, one of the great, you know, stalwarts of the faith, actually, you know, prescribing something physical for an ailment. And so it's not out of the question for us to follow the same path as well. I have to ask this question and realize this is coming from someone who is a sufferer of anxiety. So how do you balance is the word I'm going to use, but maybe the correct word is interpret the Scripture, completely blanking where it is cast all your anxieties upon him, it's gotta be Philippians. First Timothy, you know, I'm talking about because He cares for you. Right? So there's, so where does prayer fit in? How does prayer fit in? We? I wouldn't say that there's no place for prayer. But it's not the cure. All right, like this is kind of the tension. Ya know, it's a great question. In fact, I, I have a follow up workbook to the book that's coming out this spring and actually go through a lot of these verses. And so there's another one. I mean, there's the Sermon on the Mount, right, where Jesus talks about, you know, don't be anxious for anything, right. And how many of us anxiety sufferers have had that verse quoted to us, right. And so sorry, was it Yeah, right. Right. And so, there's, there's I also have a course coming out on this where I take actually what Paul uses anxiety in that word, it's kind of this Greek word and and kind of go into the etymology of the word. And in one in one aspect of his letters, he calls it a good thing. He says, Timothy has anxiety for you use the same word as, as he says, Don't be anxious. And so you're like, well, in one aspect, Paul, you're saying that anxiety that he has for the church is good. And yet, you're saying don't have that anxiety? Right? Which is it right? And so I won't bore everyone with all of that, but but let me just take the Matthew one, because that's a really, really popular one. And so if you look at that verse in Matthew, there's a there's a therefore, right before Jesus says, he says, Therefore don't be anxious about anything. And, you know, I grew up in the church, and one of the things you do is when you see therefore, you ask, what is the therefore therefore, right? And it's really fascinating. If you look at the sermon on the mount a lot of the issues that he's talking about lust, adultery, you know, all these things are standalone topics. And yet, when he gets to anxiety, there's a therefore and so you look at what is he talking about? In the verses before that he's actually talking about, you can't serve two masters he's talking about you can't love money. And so then he says, Therefore don't be anxious. It's like, oh, wait, well, so that the anxiety is talking. But this is actually connected to this idea of Miss ordered priorities when you when you chase money when you try to have two masters, therefore, you know, you're going to have anxiety, right? And so it's not this, it's not this, it's not putting anxiety sufferers on blast. It's saying, Hey, listen, when you chase things that aren't of me, you're naturally going to be anxious, right? Your priorities are all out of whack. So that's kind of a long explanation to one of those verses. But I want to get back to what you asked about prayer. And so what I would say and, and there's a book that's just absolutely changed my life, it's actually up here. Behind me, it's called a praying life by Paul Miller. And what, because I was raised in a denomination and a background that treated prayer as a way to get God to give you whatever you want. I just had a really messed up jacked up idea of prayer. And so what I've learned is that prayer is not so much about what God doing what we want him to do, it's about us drawing closer to Him. And so I even talked about praise of prayers of lament in the book. And so what I have come to understand is like, listen, I pray every day that the Lord would take this away from me, right? He hasn't. And so if he hasn't been what, right, we're still called to pray, right? Because there's this idea of what you know, when my daughter or son comes into my lab and asked me for something, even though I don't give it to them all the time, right? Because if I did, they would be eating candy constantly. There's something that happens in our relationship, when I know and they know that I'm the one who can help them right. And even while they're asking and not receiving what they think is good for them. And yet, I'm giving them what is better our relationship grows. And that's really what prayer is about. It's about that relationship growing between you and God. But by praying and asking God, you're admitting that he's the one that can answer it, right? And so it kind of actually slides really well into what I call a proper theology of suffering, which I know we can we're going to talk about a little bit later. But it's this idea that I think God knows what's best for us. And so you may say, John, are you saying that God believes that anxiety is best for you? And I would say, yeah, sometimes it is. Right. Like, like Paul had this thorn in his flesh, right he had, and whether that was a physical or a spiritual ailment, he had an issue that God allowed, right, because he knew that it was actually better in the long run for Paul. And I can say that I've actually gotten to a point where while I do pray that God takes my anxiety and OCD away, I have seen the fat I've seen how me having it has drawn me closer to God in a way that, that I don't see myself, you know, being as close to him without it. So that's why we still need prayer. Right? That's that's why we still need to bring our prayers of lament and our questions to God. And I think there's a difference between questioning God and asking God questions. And we're supposed to ask questions, a lot of questions. And and I have found that I, I become closer to God in that process. Hmm. I love that. That's so good. So talk more, let's touch on it now, the proper theology of suffering that you mentioned in your book, what does that mean? Yeah, it's really I think it's the bedrock foundation for everything. It's the bedrock and the foundation for understanding why I suffer right and why I go through hard things which by the way, isn't just this I had my sister was killed in a car accident. That wasn't her fault my steps died of a stroke during COVID. And, you know, was literally here one day and gone the next and died on Easter. And so a proper theology of suffering is the idea that we get to a place where we don't judge God by our circumstances. But we judge our circumstances by who we know God is. And it's it, it it in a way, it's it's the only way that I can make sense of why we go through pain and suffering. And I think, you know, CS Lewis, who is my favorite author, author, and I have his book behind me as well in my office. But you know, he, he, he gives some of the most prescient talks on pain and suffering is kind of where I root a lot of this in. And so in one aspect, he talks about how how pain is the megaphone that God uses to rouse a deaf world. And you and I are both hard of hearing, you know, and so I have to get to a point where I say, Okay, I know there's sin in the world, I know they're suffering, that doesn't mean God is bad. It means there's something that that he's allowing, for a reason, kind of start pulling in all the things in Romans and, and what Paul talks about, and in things working for our good except that we tend to tell God what we think is good for us, right? We're the one we say, Oh, well, it'd be really good for me not to have anxiety and OCD. And maybe, like, maybe there's a point that that happens. But God has said, No, don't judge me by the fact that you have anxiety and OCD. Judge your anxiety and OCD by who you know I am, I'm a good God, I allow things for a reason I could take it away. And so what what are you going to learn? And what are you going to notice that I'm teaching you in this process? Reminds me a lot of job. And it's so interesting. I'm so glad you said that. Because there's the chapter two in my book, it's called the most important book of the Bible. And it's all about job. And so Job has been the singular most important book for me. Dealing with not just my anxiety and OCD, but, you know, the suffering and losing people that have been really close to me. And and I love. It's just so fascinating. If you look at the book of Job, two things I'd point out is one the greatest, most, you know, I guess I would say the harshest words are reserved not for job, but for Job's friends. And why? Because Job's friend said you did something to cause this, right? And God's like, Nope, that is absolutely not the truth. Right. So that's the first thing that's really important. It kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about coming out of kind of this, this wrong gospel of you know, we cause these things, if you will. And then the second thing is, I think a lot of people read job and they say, Oh, my gosh, well, job got, like, so much stuff. He got, like, double his stuff at the end, right? So that's what's gonna get me through, right? And so I go through job and I say, Do you realize that like, that is literally in in some of the, it's like the last chapter. And it's like a, it's like a footnote in the last chapter. It says, Oh, by the way, and job got, you know, this stuff. And so the point is not the job got more stuff. The point is, that job got more of God. And so it goes back to your point about why do we pray, like job the men did, and prayed and cried out to the Lord. And in the end, the best thing that happened to him was he got more of God. And the stuff that he got was just kind of, it's just an afterthought. It's like, Okay, God kind of threw that in as a bonus, right? But he got more of God. And so you and me, when we cry out, when we lament, when we ask questions, we get more of God. And that's the best thing that we can get. And so, so that's why I can actually get to a point where I'm thankful for my anxiety and OCD because it gives me more of God. Absolutely, and, you know, I, when we get to heaven, we can ask him job, and I bet he'll say the things paled in comparison to the relationship that I, that I had with God through that series of suffering. Yeah. And you know, that what did you know? I also as a writer, right, I think that the poems, the pros of job, some of the most beautiful writing that we've ever seen as a society, and, you know, so Job asks, like, why God, why is this happening? And the answer that God gives job is, because I'm God, right? Like, sometimes you're not going to understand it. And and that answer, by the way, like, God gives them that answer job is like, yeah, that's good. You're right. Awesome, you know, and so it's like, if that good if that answer is good enough for Joe who's literally on his deathbed, then it's got to be good enough for me. And the last thing I'll say about job that I think a lot of people skip over, is you know, if you read The intro to job. I think a lot of people in their head, they make this assumption that like the devil goes to God asks God about job, and God is like, okay, but you can't kill them. But that's not how the story goes like that. The devil and God are having a conversation. And God says, Hey, by the way, have you seen job, you considered my servant, Joe, like the most humble and, you know, upright, righteous man in the world, it's God that brings up job to the devil, right. And so I think there are some times again, like, we can't deny that, like, the Lord is saying, I'm gonna allow this because it's actually ultimately for your good, and my glory. And that's really the final part about a proper theology of suffering, we have to believe that he allows things for our good and his glory, and it's for our ultimate good. And And again, we cannot define what that is we'd like to, but but that's where we really need to trust that the Lord, like what he says in His Word is true that he is ultimately for our good and his glory. Doesn't it also kind of scare you? When? Because it comes up again, in the New Testament, when Jesus says to who is it Peter, Satan has asked to thread a thread, she was wheat. And I've always, in my mind, equated that to what happened with job like Satan has asked to do something similar, maybe not to the same extent or, you know, tragedy to Peter. And Jesus basically says, I have prayed that you would not lose your faith in it. And so is Do you think that it is that, like, is that part of our suffering as well, that even when the enemy's forces are trying to tear us away from God to distract us to question the goodness of God? That, like, that's part of the suffering as well, but it's also a trial and testing of our faith. Yeah, so here's how I would answer that. And, and I actually go back to what CS Lewis said, and so there's, there's a quote in my book that CS Lewis is talking about this, I believe it's in the problem of pain. And he says, you know, I'm paraphrasing here, but basically, you never, you're never going to know if you fully believe what you say you believe until it gets tested. Right. And so for CS Lewis, he, he lost his mom, when he was very young, he faced you know, his dad was basically a strange sent him off to boarding school, he had a really cruel and harsh headmaster, and he became an atheist, right. And then he finds faith again, and he finds this woman that her her name is Joy, and, and he falls in love with her, and she dies of cancer, you know, very soon after. And so when he's talking about this, and I really believe, what he says is true, is that also part of the reason that the Lord allows us to go through trials is so that we can fully appreciate what we say we believe, right? You know, I've known a lot of people who have gone through cancer and cancer scares, and, you know, losing loved ones. Like I was talking about myself, or even losing children. And, and to a tee, they all say, like, I thought I believed in God. And then I got went through tragedy. And now I know, I believe in God, right. And so I think there are aspects and times where we, that those difficulties, and those issues are allowed so that we can strengthen our faith and really know and understand, hey, that is what I believe. Yeah. It gives me goosebumps, to hear, you know, to just to hear that like to think of the tragedies that people go through. And when they come out the other side, you know, but it doesn't surprise me because a couple of years ago, Barna did a study and they asked people, what is the word that you would describe the season in which you were closest to God? And the number one word was trial? Yeah, and it's in those seasons, that the opportunity to draw closer to God is so real. And so like, that's, that's what gets you through it. Yeah. And so even, you know, there's CS Lewis talks about so much more poetically, but he basically is like, I had to realize whether my faith was a house of cards or not. And what I realized is it wasn't a house of cards right? Or there's another the other explanation uses you know, I thought I was kind of uses a betting analogy. I thought it was basically playing for six pence. Right. So I thought I was playing for pennies. And what I realized is I was playing for you know, all the money in the world. And and I wouldn't trade that for anything and Again, I would say, and I wouldn't trade my anxiety or my OCD for anything, right? I mean, it has made, you know, when I talk to someone who maybe isn't a believer or who is struggling and, and not a person of faith, I can honestly say that like, Listen, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to try to force God on you. He's got to draw you to Himself. But there's no way I could get through any of this without him. And my anxiety, no CD has made that perfectly clear. 100% Well, John, as we as we close out, and we've talked about several different things suffering anxiety, OCD, what would be some of the final words that you would share with the listeners who either may be struggling with anxiety? Or, or OCD or have a loved one who is? So there's, there's a couple things I would say the first thing I would say is, there is hope. Right. And I know that it may seem hopeless, right? Like, you know, I opened with the story of how I finally got help. And so listen, that was a very hopeless time for my wife, it was a very hopeless time for me. And I would never think that I would be where I am today. You know, when I think back on that day, to see where I am today, I would have never imagined it. Right. And, and part of that is, Listen, you know, I still have anxious episodes, right? But now instead of lasting days, weeks, sometimes months. There, they are much more temporal than that. Right? So that's the first thing. And then the second thing would be kind of piggybacking off of that is like, Listen, this is an ongoing battle. So the title of my book is finding rest. And I and I like to really make clear this distinction is, I don't see rest as a final destination that you're going to attain right now. Right? Like that is that is not something that any of us will have this side of heaven. And so what I what I encourage people is, is I treat rest as respite, right? It's those rest stops along your journey. You know, if you think of Pilgrims Progress, like, it's those rest stops along the way that allow you to rejuvenate and reconsider and refresh. And those are the moments of rest I'm talking about. And so this is an ongoing battle. And and by the way, it's supported by the idea of like, we have the armor of God, right? Like, if we had one battle to fight, we wouldn't need the armor of God. And yet, he gives us the armor and tells us to put it on daily, right? And that assumes that listen, we are in these constant battles. And And yet, there are times that we kind of go behind enemy lines, we refresh, we rejuvenate. And that's where God meets us. And that's where I have found him meet me. So I think those two things are really important to, to understand. And what I would encourage you to do is, is just take like one step, right? And so for some people, like maybe that's, I'm going to talk to my doctor about it, or, you know, I've talked to my doctor, they told me I should consider medication, I'm going to consider medication, or, you know, I'm going to go to a counselor, I'm going to go to a psychiatrist, just take that one. Next step, I kind of make a joke, but it's like, it's like there's, there's some innocence, there's some good theology and frozen to write, like, just do the next right thing. You know, and and we just have to do that next right thing, you and I both know that that right is given to us by God. And he's kind of laid that out. And so do the next right thing. Take a step and it's never too late. So powerful. John, I have so thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, I could ask you 1000s of more questions, I am sure, but highly recommend that all the listeners go and get your book number one bestseller on Amazon, by the way. We'll link to it in the show notes. But it's called Finding rest a survivor's guide to navigating the valleys of anxiety, faith and life by John Cetyl. Again, we will link to it in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, John, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Here my key takeaways from this amazing conversation with Ron. You know, first of all, I love this quote that he said, We don't judge God, by our circumstances, judge our circumstances by who we know, God is. How powerful is that? I have goosebumps just rereading it. Because it puts us into our place. The place of how we know so little and God knows so much. And if there's anything I know how God I know he is good all the time, even when life is not good. God is always good. And so ask yourself, what are the circumstances that you've experienced in your life? tragedies, the sufferings, the thorn that may be in your side, the thing that you'd like to not get rid of, in a different frame. You can actually see how it is evidence of the goodness of God and wrestle. wrestle with how you can reframe to judge your circumstances, who you know God is and not judge God I what your circumstances are seeming to tell you right now. I also hope that for anyone who is struggling with anxiety, OCD or any other mental health issue that you would take the steps that John outlined, go talk to a doctor, find a counselor, do the next right step. And remember that there is always, always hope for next week.