Is hospitality just about dinner parties and nice guest rooms? Or is there something deeper at play? Ian Simkins, joins Kimberly Beam Holmes of "It Starts with Attraction" as they explore hospitality through a powerful lens – the heart of God.
They delve into how the story of the Prodigal Son reveals God's "lovesick" nature and the challenge of overcoming our "older brother" mentality. Discover how hospitality is a grand act of grace, echoing a greater story of welcome and belonging.
This conversation will challenge and inspire you to:
If you long to be more hospitable with the heart of God, this video is for you! Dive into Christian hospitality and the gospel of grace and discover a way of life that reflects God's boundless love.
The Bridge Church
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
Website: www.itstartswithattraction.com
Thanks for listening!
Connect on Instagram: @kimberlybeamholmes
Be sure to SUBSCRIBE to the podcast and leave a review!
WE HAVE A NEW WEBSITE!!
Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!
Is hospitality just about dinner parties and nice guest rooms? Or is there something deeper at play? Ian Simkins, joins Kimberly Beam Holmes of "It Starts with Attraction" as they explore hospitality through a powerful lens – the heart of God.
They delve into how the story of the Prodigal Son reveals God's "lovesick" nature and the challenge of overcoming our "older brother" mentality. Discover how hospitality is a grand act of grace, echoing a greater story of welcome and belonging.
This conversation will challenge and inspire you to:
If you long to be more hospitable with the heart of God, this video is for you! Dive into Christian hospitality and the gospel of grace and discover a way of life that reflects God's boundless love.
The Bridge Church
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
Website: www.itstartswithattraction.com
Thanks for listening!
Connect on Instagram: @kimberlybeamholmes
Be sure to SUBSCRIBE to the podcast and leave a review!
WE HAVE A NEW WEBSITE!!
Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!
I think we need to seriously reconsider what it means to be on mission for the Kingdom of God, for the power of the Holy Spirit. I've never in my adult life seen the reduction of a person to their set of beliefs more than right now, and it's become so flat in my mind that if you vote this way, you live this way, you are this in my mind and nothing more. People are way more complex than that and I think that we miss some of that when we aren't willing to do this. And he said it's so funny to me, you Americans debating whether or not to talk about God's power. He says in Africa, we pray for God's power all the time because we feel so powerless. He said in America, you guys talk about God's presence because you feel so powerless. He said in America, you guys talk about God's presence because you feel so alone.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us about the week you decided to be homeless? What in the world are these?
Speaker 1:questions.
Speaker 2:I am honored to be joined in today's episode by Ian Simpkins. Ian is the lead pastor at the church I go to. It's called the Bridge, it's in Tennessee and he has had an amazing impact on my life, on my family's life. His teachings have been incredibly helpful to align my family and myself back to the Word of God and to be formed by the teachings of Jesus. In today's episode we cover a variety of topics, all the way from if he were to preach one last sermon, what would it be? And why, why he chose to live a week as a homeless person and even wrestling with the question of does the devil have the ability to answer prayers? It's some crazy stuff that we get into, but it's a really fascinating conversation. Be sure you stick around for the entire thing. You definitely won't want to miss the ending. Let's dive in to today's episode, and I can't wrap my mind around how many sermons you've probably preached. But if you were to give one last message or one last sermon, what would you want it to be on?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. You know, my, my wife didn't grow up in the church and uh.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that that's been such a gift for so many reasons. But I remember the first time she heard me preach the story of the prodigal son. She came up to me afterwards and she was like, did you know that story? And in my head I was like, yeah, you know, I've been to the church since I was six. I'm like, yeah, it's like maybe the most famous New Testament story. And she got like this tear in her eye and she's like we should just preach that every week and it was like so helpful to like hear that again through like fresh perspective.
Speaker 1:And I've thought about that a lot over the years, that that might be if there was like a last sermon, or the one that I would preach every Sunday if I could, or lost on a desert Island and you only had one. You know that. That that to me is. I think any picture of God that is anything less than a lovesick father running ardently to a son return home is just woefully inadequate. And I just love there's so many layers to that. The older brother, the father who runs, I think there'd be. That's not just because I preached it recently, maybe that's why, but I just think there's it's just so rich with the gospel, with grace, with the love of a father, with the ways that we miss it Sometimes. I could, I could see that being a last sermon text.
Speaker 2:I definitely see myself as the older brother more times than not. I don't love that.
Speaker 1:That's probably a good start, I think. I don't think we should love that necessarily.
Speaker 2:Right, no, but I mean it is hard to feel like thinking about that older brother. Like I'm the one who's been here, I've been doing all the right things, yes, why does he get the party? Yes, but this goes in line with a topic you've been talking about a lot recently anyway, which is this Christian hospitality. What does that mean?
Speaker 1:I think it means a lot more than I probably would have guessed even just a couple of years ago. You know, I grew up in this really lovely little church outside Detroit and hospitality, like there was a hospitality wing, you know, or like the fellowship hall, that was like the area where the snacks were kept, and so from much of my life I was like hospitality is sort of like where the cookies are. Yeah, it's food which is not not food, right, but in my mind it was like, oh, hospitality is um, at best it's like cordiality, it's like a nice thing If you have the, the money in the space, like dabbing even into the word hospitality phyloxenia, the love of the stranger, the love of the foreign. It's literally the opposite of of um, the fear of stranger, the fear of xenophobia. You know, like hospitality and hospital share the same etymology because they both lead to healing. And I think hospitality for much of my life was like a nice add-on if you had the time or the budget or the space.
Speaker 1:And I began just looking at the ministry of Jesus and how he chose to use his time was not really anything I considered. I spent a lot of time like studying the words of Jesus, but maybe not the works or the ways of Jesus, which I think are as equally important, and I just missed it. You could make the case that the gospel of grace is that while we were still strangers, foreigners far away, god comes after us, invites us in. That is a cosmic act of hospitality, and so maybe it's possible that, like our smaller micro demonstrations of hospitality, or actually like a foretaste of a of a grander narrative. That's why I think it matters so much. It's not just hey, you should have dinner with other people once in a while, because that's a good neighborly thing to do. I'm like, oh, I think it's. I think it's way more enigmatic than that, and I'm I'm honestly a little embarrassed that I've only really come online to some of that in the last couple of years. Really.
Speaker 2:Growing up, my mom is the quintessential Southern woman Amazing, so her hospitality is off the chains.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's literally five course meals, more food than you can imagine. Let's go All the time, which is amazing. Uh, I am not the cook type person, and so for me, even just this past weekend, my, my husband's aunt came to stay with us and I was freaking out and I was like Rob, I, I, I don't cook, what am I going to have for her? Really stressed me out and so, um, she left yesterday and my husband, rob, was telling me after she left. He said, she said that our hospitality meant so much to her this weekend and I said what? Literally, I said what hospitality.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:We didn't do yeah.
Speaker 1:She felt it though.
Speaker 2:But I and even my husband.
Speaker 2:He was like you have to not compare you to your mother, who has the gift, like if it's a spiritual gift totally, my mother has it, but um, but even more, you know us. Opening our home for the weekend was a small part of that, but it went further back, and one of the things that came out while she was there was, uh, there had been a, a toughle in the family and she had been extradited for a period of time, and it was apparently my, my husband, rob, who was like I just want to talk to my, my aunt, and reached out and started the relationship again, which then ended up the whole family bringing her back in, and so it wasn't just like staying at our house and providing cinnamon rolls that I literally burned, but they had frosting, so you have frosting.
Speaker 1:Frosting covers a multitude of sins, is what I'm told.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also just made Texas sheet cake, which I will give you a piece of when, when we're done.
Speaker 1:I know that is.
Speaker 2:Lots of butter. All of this to say is when, because you're, you're my pastor, I go to your church at the bridge and we'll include the show notes like links for people to watch, for sure. But we've been talking about hospitality a lot and I've realized that one of my barriers to it has been the like weight of expectation of what what I think it means to be hospitable and I'm like, oh, I can't live up to that, so I'll just not. And you even so beautifully put other ways that people can can be hospitable and how, just like you said, it's not just about the food, the beautiful guest bedroom that looks like a Pinterest page.
Speaker 2:It's about what Like a caring, intentional connection with another person and inviting them in.
Speaker 1:It's a seat at the table. I don't even think it needs to be at your house. To be honest, I think hospitality can happen at a coffee shop. I think it can happen at a subway, like. I think for me cause I'm with you, I'm the oldest of seven, so nothing stayed nice in our house. Everything's broken Like. That's just how it was. We were feral, and I mean we were. It was just a wild. I loved it. I loved my childhood. It was chaos. I didn't know what a centerpiece was until I was 20. I was like you guys have. We don't have space at our table for a centerpiece, like every inch of real estate is spoken for because there's a million of us.
Speaker 1:I think we have conflated entertainment with hospitality, unfortunately, and I do think I don't want to knock those that have the gift, I think, of entertaining guests. We have made the two the same, though, and I think that's where a lot of the stress comes from, because if the aim is for me to entertain guests, then all the pressure's on me ultimately to impress you. That's not what hospitality is. Hospitality is not me impressing you. It's about you being known. It's about you having a seat at the table. It's about giving space for, like, meaningful connection. I think we're living in a time right now where we're seeing comments back and forth under Facebook posts and we're calling it conversation. Like that's a series of declarations is not a conversation. I think we intuitively know that Something is lost when we can't do this, and I can't look at your expressions when I say something that's a little off and I'm like oh, that might've been too mean or too barbed or whatever.
Speaker 1:I think hospitality is much more about providing space to like, see and be seen, and that honestly has very little to do with how good or bad the cuisine is, how glorious your table is, what the environment is. I think those things matter. I think there's ways to do it in any environment in an apartment, in a park, at a coffee shop. I think it's about creating space and I think that when I look at the ministry of Jesus, particularly in the gospel of Luke, he's either at a meal, going to a meal, leaving a meal or making a meal. Like it.
Speaker 1:It seems it's hard to unsee it when you see like boy, he is spending a lot of time at tables and getting ridiculed for it. By the way, like that's also probably worth including Like there wasn't always applause for the table manners of Jesus. In a lot of ways, that's what riled up the religious elite of his time, and I think that can, in our day, be the same. But it didn't seem to matter as much the environment or the context. It was about actually like meeting people where they're at, and I think I can't think of a time in my adulthood where we've needed that more than right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you recently made a pretty controversial post on Instagram about this, about being hospitable to people who share a different belief other than Christianity, and in this context particularly, it was hey if you have friends celebrating Ramadan right now here's some do's and don'ts, because you grew up in Michigan where there were several people who were of the Muslim faith, and so I guess first I would ask you to speak to like there's a belief.
Speaker 2:Right now it seems in society that if if someone doesn't agree with me or if I don't agree with what they are doing, then I should not be like I should condone, I should I should condemn that I should I should not do something that looks like I'm supporting that. And it can be very difficult to for some people probably a lot of people, me included to feel like how can I walk the line of loving this person but also not like agreeing with some things they might do, that I, that I, that I don't agree with Yep, how do you process that?
Speaker 1:I mean, how do you process that? I mean imperfectly, that's for sure. I would be remiss to not say I get it wrong all the time. I'm still in process, I'm still learning. Not everything I say or preach or write is going to 100% hit the mark. So I'm very much in process.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of it has to do with our tribal identity and I'm sympathetic to that. I think that there's safety in who are my people. I even understand the instinct to like draw lines. I am not that I am this, even down to granular denominational categories and things like that.
Speaker 1:I also think about the accusation of Jesus being a drunk and a glutton is so interesting to me. You don't say that about someone who, like, once in a while hangs out with those people, right, and he goes on a mission trip on occasion. To that he was doing and hanging out with the wrong type of people so frequently that the religious gatekeepers were like no, he's a drunk, he's a glutton. This is Jesus we're talking about. Fully God, fully man. Their observance was nah, he can't be the guy People actually enjoy him. He's going to places we're not willing to go. I think we've had iterations of that throughout the centuries we're like as a Christian, you need to.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I feel like the pressure is. I need to make sure that everyone is crystal clear on who I am against and what I am not about, and that kind of piety to me, I think, is precisely the thing that Jesus seems to reserve his harshest criticisms toward. That's not to say that he doesn't care about holiness. I think he absolutely does. I think that we are. I mean, even here in Middle Tennessee, I think we're even seeing a resurgence of holiness consecration language, and I think that's beautiful and needed. I do think, though, that if our highest concern or aim is oh, I don't want anyone to even misconstrue my kindness for this person as condoning I don't know when that happened, but like compassion does not have to mean condoning, and we've. So you see it, when people say things like I'm going to quote somebody and I don't agree with everything they've ever said, you're like that's not true for anyone ever. I don't agree with everything I've said, right, let alone so, like you can see it in a number of different places where I don't think 50 years ago you had to add all those caveats. I don't agree with everything they said, but this, I thought was really good. That used to be assumed because, yeah, we could think critically. We're complex beings and there's a line here that I think is really resonant and I think it's truthful and I think it's God honoring to say X, y, z.
Speaker 1:I think we're in a time and a culture where it does feel like preservation has become like our highest aim, and I think that's problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is it is sort of counter-hospital. That's not to say that there aren't lines and boundaries we need to draw, even in this conversation around the table, like the number of people who have asked me, really beautiful, faithful people. Does that mean that I need to invite my abusing ex-husband to the table? Like I don't, I don't know that. It means that actually I don't. I don't want to imply that that, oh yes, if anyone's ever wronged you like you should put yourself in every situation all the time, like that can. Obviously that falls apart too, but our highest aim or concern is like oh, I can't, I don't, I don't want to risk harming my reputation by in any way being seen at that place or with those people.
Speaker 1:I think we need to seriously reconsider what it means to be on mission for the kingdom of God by the power of the Holy spirit, and I think and myself included, by the way like I'm, I feel like I'm always trying to. All right, lord, am I, is this just my own ego, my own interest, or is this actually like a? Is this a mission field, or is this a people that you're calling me to proactively seek after and love? So I get, I definitely understand some of the pushback and I and I'm okay with that and I think that it's it's fine to even disagree on that, but I do think it is worth reconsidering. Is our, is our highest aim, helping people understand the gospel of grace? And, if so, how does that live out in our actual day-to-day lives? You know?
Speaker 2:you bring up a good point and I was actually journaling about it either last night or this morning, thinking about the disciples and how, especially like the zealot and the tax collector, weren't going to get along at first Right. But that was part of the beauty of Jesus saying they'll know you. Here I am quoting a Bible verse in front of the preacher. I'm like, I'm scared.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get it wrong.
Speaker 2:But they'll know you're my followers by your love. Yeah, basically, that's great, you're my followers by your love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, basically. Yeah, that's great, it's perfect, nailed it.
Speaker 2:And it was like man, like they are going to really have to intentionally. Love is a decision. At that point it's not a feeling, because they were taught to hate each other.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Or you know at least hate one way, and I'm thinking about the table and even in families where there's been hurt, unresolved conflict, pain, trauma, I'm thinking about like, as the time you and I are filming this, easter is coming up, so there's like Easter tables people are about to go to, and it's this. It's actually something I've been thinking about the past couple of weeks through your series, cause it's like there's this call to come to the table and come around with people at the table, but sometimes these are people who really have hurt you and sometimes you don't want to be. Sometimes I don't want to be at the table because it would feel easier to just to just not. And you know, with the woman that you mentioned, with the abusing ex-husband, I think that's clear. It's not about putting yourself in a situation where you could be harmed, and I think that makes sense. But what about when relationships are hard and you just don't want to go to the table?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think spiritual formation is a lot of things we don't want to do. That's not to say it's a blanket one size fits all. I think we know this intuitively. At a physical level, growth happens through resistance right, that's what weight training is is is resistance. And yet it does feel like man. If I feel any resistance toward it, don't do it. It couldn't possibly be a good thing. If I feel any trepidation or any nervousness there's certainly I hear this a lot like I don't have a peace about it so I'm not going to do it. I'm like, well, I could show you the chapter and verse where he says just to do it. So maybe peace is not always a prerequisite to action.
Speaker 1:I do believe that the Holy Spirit at times does give the peace that transcends understanding. I absolutely believe that. But I also wonder, like man, there are seasons in my life, and I'm sure in yours too, where you look back you're like I wouldn't wish that season on anybody. And yet I also know the most growth in my entire life happened in those three weeks or those four months or whatever. I think both can be true. Yeah, that was really hard.
Speaker 1:I was in the desert, I was in the wilderness. I had a mentor that used to say it's actually in the desert that roots go down deepest. Sometimes those seasons are actually for our formation. You know, I had a professor that loved Henry Nowen, and one of his quotes was the great myth of leadership is the thought that people can be led out of the desert by someone who's never been there. I just think there's so much wisdom in that, and so I think of these relationships that are tense or or fractured or not where we want them to be. I don't think it is a one size fits all like yep, you should be having dinner with them once a week. I don't think it's prescriptive, but I also don't think we should run from things that feel weighty. I think that is part of why this distraction epidemic is so well consuming, is it keeps us, I think, from diving more headlong into maybe complex emotions or feelings or thought. I mean, I've seen this in my own life.
Speaker 1:I often run from silence, stillness, because, if you really ask me, if I'm really honest, I'm afraid of what I'm going to hear. So I run to doom, scrolling or put anything on in the background or any like. We do these things to avoid difficult feelings or difficult relationships, and I just can't help but wonder if maybe God is precisely asking us to enter into them and if there isn't growth, even for us, it's not just a charity act Like okay, well, I know that we've had our disagreements, but I'm going to be Jesus to you and invite you to the table. Like no, there's a formation that happens in me as well, when I'm forced to no longer demonize you from a distance. Now I have to do this, and we might not leave one meal agreeing, but I am forced to humanize you again, and we're seeing this. It's an election year, as I'm sure everyone is aware. I've never in my adult life seen the reduction of a person to their set of beliefs more than right now, and it's become so flat in my mind that if you vote this way, you believe this way. You are this in my mind and nothing more. People are way more complex than that, and I think that we miss some of that when we aren't willing to do this Now.
Speaker 1:Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing either. I do feel like those have been conflated. You know, forgiveness doesn't diminish the offense. It stops the offense from poisoning your heart, and sometimes you can forgive someone and also, in Jesus, say I don't think we need to be in relationship anymore and that's okay. But I, I choose to forgive you because that's because of what I've been forgiven of and I don't want that poisoning my heart anymore. So I think, providing space even for, yeah, you can experience true healing in broken relationships and not necessarily say we need to be best buds for the next 30 years. But I always think there's a possibility, though, that maybe, maybe we're not seeing the reconciliation that we long for, because we're content with the narrative that we have about that person, and as long as I'm distant from you, I can perpetuate that till the end of time, and then when I actually sit with you, it disrupts that a little bit, I think in a pretty beautiful way.
Speaker 2:Do you think that every relationship can be reconciled?
Speaker 1:While we're alive on planet earth. Is this a eschatological?
Speaker 2:question. You get to choose how you answer.
Speaker 1:I mean, I believe in the God that raises people from the dead. So, yeah, I think anything is possible. I do think some harm has been done by conflating forgiveness and reconciliation and forcing people to be in unsafe spaces or with unsafe people who have not yet done the interior work to get their own healing. That, I think, has caused real harm. I think a lot of well-meaning pastors who do not have a counseling degree have tried to do work that they were not trained to do and have given advice that has probably led to real harm. But yeah, if you're asking me about do, I believe it's possible, absolutely. I've seen crazier. I mean, that's just the reality of the kingdom, I think. But I think it's helpful to have faithful categories, so people that aren't so, like the lady that came up to me and said oh my gosh, do I need, am I not being a faithful Christian? Then if I don't invite my abuser back into my home, I'm like I think the church needs to speak to that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you ever seen a miracle?
Speaker 1:I have seen a miracle. I've seen like. I've seen a couple.
Speaker 1:It's not when I first when I first accidentally became lead pastor which is a whole that's a whole long story A big role to accidentally fall into. It is. If we had time, you would be like, yep, that was an accident. I was 25. Wasn't supposed to happen. It was a whole thing. I didn't know what I was doing, had a bachelor's of youth ministry Like I legitimately had had not a clue and uh, I had only been preaching like a couple of weeks and somebody come up to me afterwards and asked me to to pray for healing for their daughter and I stumbled my way through. I didn't know how to do it. I was real awkward. I didn't like really come from a tradition necessarily that talked about that all that often on occasion it was real bad, though I was like so embarrassed I was like they are going to go to a different church. This guy can't even pray.
Speaker 2:Worst prayer in the world.
Speaker 1:And I knew it and I could feel they knew it. And then that next Sunday the dad came up to me with just tears running down his face and he just goes, she's, she's healed. And I was like this is this is how young and naive it was. I go, who's healed. And he looks at me and goes my daughter, you prayed for her last week. I was like, oh my gosh. He's like why are you so surprised? You're the pastor. And I was like I don't, I'm just the. It was like, so I did not have a good poker face and I I saw his daughter and it was like a very like visible external. You could tell if it was or wasn't. And I I, to be honest, I didn't know what to do with that. And that was that shattered some categories for me in my in my mid twenties that I was very, very, very grateful for, because that had nothing to do with my eloquence or even really my belief or faith that it would happen.
Speaker 1:I was like wow that's just the goodness of God, because I stumbled my way backwards through that prayer and here you are. So that that was. That was that was God's kindness to allow me to experience that so early on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you think makes something a miracle? Here's what I'm getting to Do. You think it's still considered a miracle, even if science eventually finds a way to explain how God did it?
Speaker 1:Oh man, this isn't my full answer, but I think it was Einstein who said either all of life is a miracle or none of it is. You can say what you will about Einstein. I think there's some real truth to that. There is a reason that you don't hear me often talk about. I won't necessarily use the word supernatural in sermons, because I do think we have a pretty heaven is up there, earth is down here, and every once in a while God like interjects and does something really cool and then he like zips back up to heaven. I actually don't think that is the picture of God's proximity to his people that we see in the New Testament and somewhere along the lines we've kind of separated the two, and so I do think our definition of miracles, at the very least, probably needs some expanding.
Speaker 1:I think that there's a sense of control, that we seek to make sense of things. I think we've been doing that since the beginning of time. We're storied creatures, so we tell stories about the way the world works and why things are the way they are, and I think the sciences are certainly included in that. But I also look at like like becoming a father man. I know that people are having, there's a new baby, whatever. 13 seconds on the planet or something. I guess it's the. It is the most common thing to mankind. And look at my little boy. He was born very early and so he was, you know, in the NICU, hooked up to all these, all these wires, and that was very, very scary. But just being struck with like the miracle of new life. I was like how could I not see this as a miracle, Even though we have libraries full of books explaining what it is that we're looking at and how this is? For me at least, it was like a miraculous moment that expanded my definition indefinitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you think, miracles still happen?
Speaker 1:100%.
Speaker 2:More often than we probably give them credit for.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's funny, I think so. I think, oh boy, you're going to get me on a soapbox.
Speaker 2:I think there's a reason.
Speaker 1:I think there's a reason that okay you asked for it.
Speaker 1:I did. The church right now is exploding, not in America, it's exploding in places like Iran, iraq, north and East Africa. You talk to church planners and missionaries and people boots on the ground there they laugh at that question. In fact, when I was at our last church in Chicago, we had kind of a teaching team model and because it was a well-known church, we would get residents and people doing internships from all over the country, all over the globe, on our space. So I would like always selfishly try to like get coffee with these people once a month just to hear about their perspective and what are they seeing. And I remember my buddy, charles, who was who would later plant the church in South Africa.
Speaker 1:We were in a teaching team meeting and we were debating the use of a certain phrase or something we were talking about. Like gosh, we talk about God's power that way. Is that weird, is that? And he just kind of laughed and he said it's so funny to me, you Americans debating whether or not to talk about God's power. He says in Africa we pray for God's power all the time because we feel so powerless. He said in America you guys talk about God's presence because you feel so alone, and the whole room just fell silent. And this whole kind of point was, I think, some of why we're seeing what we're seeing in Africa is because, like, there's a desperation for the hand of God, the power of God this is a blanket statement's a desperation for the hand of God, the power of God. This is a blanket statement. But oftentimes in the West, though we're pretty sure of our methods and strategies and structures I think all of those are fine. He's like you, y'all don't have like a desperation the way that we do, though there's like a there's a Lord. We need you to come through in this environment, in this space, and I think there might be something to that. There might be why we're seeing not only the explosion of the gospel in these spaces, but also like demonstrations of the miraculous.
Speaker 1:Like you know, tozer said decades ago in the early church if the Holy Spirit left, everything would cease and 95% of people would be aware of it. He's like the church of today in the West if the Holy Spirit were to leave, 95% wouldn't notice and everything would continue as it is. And that was I mean. He made that statement a while ago, and that kind of haunts me Like are we actually I know that can be kind of spooky language for people Are we like operating in the gifts of the Spirit or by the power of the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 1:And it's a little cheeky, but I've said I, apart from the Holy spirit, the Christian life isn't difficult. It's impossible Like we, we need the Holy spirit. So whether it's, you know, healing a little girl or just like growing in patience for my kid, I think those are both miracles and they're both evidence of God's work in our life. And I think we need to normalize how we talk about the Holy Spirit in our life and the outworking of that. And if we could learn anything from our international brothers and sisters, maybe desperation is a little bit of what we need if we want to experience that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's part of me that thinks that miracles of a restoration of relationships are probably some of the most miraculous ones. Because it's taken two people that have had either hardness of hearts or whatever in there that God has done a powerful work in to be able to bring back together.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What frustrates you about the church?
Speaker 1:Big C church.
Speaker 2:What's the difference in the big C and the little C church?
Speaker 1:You're talking about the bridge specifically, or?
Speaker 2:like I'm not trying to get you fired.
Speaker 1:Who's bugging you right now? Right Like we have a copier that just won't work. The big C church frustrates, Is that? What is that what you asked? Yeah, I feel like in a lot of ways the church, particularly in the West, is maybe spend too much time trying to be relevant, trendy. We wouldn't maybe say those words because we know that they're kind of buzzwords and we're not supposed to be about those things and I'm not even really anti them. You know we got a great like comms team at the bridge. That's like hey, here's some of the trends we're seeing. We think this might help with the. I think that's brilliant. I love that we have people with that skillset. We're thinking about those things.
Speaker 1:But at a more macro level, you know, Jesus's crowds towards the end just got smaller and smaller. He just kept saying harder and harder things, which is sort of like the opposite approach of a politician. You'll notice like the closer we get to election day, the messages get more and more ambiguous, because you're like trying to cast a wider and wider net. And yet Jesus is over here saying like eat my flesh, drink my blood, and people are like all right, deuces, I can't. Yeah, I was with you with the walking on water thing. But now you know what I mean. Yeah, and he seems perfectly content with this like downward mobility thing.
Speaker 1:Even Paul you see this in the New Testament letters. Paul writes make it your ambition to lead a quiet life. Why is no one talking about that Right now? I feel like a lot of church slogans and mission statements feel like commencement speeches, like reach for the stars, accomplish your dreams, you can do it. I'm like, maybe, but what if it's actually just about, like man, faithfully love the 12 people that are actually in your life. Make it your ambition to live a quiet life, Live a life of hospitality and generosity. And maybe it isn't actually about building a platform or an audience or a book. I'm not knocking any of those things, by the way, but of all the things you could have said, make it your ambition A quiet life is a very interesting choice of words and I think we see this modeled in Jesus.
Speaker 1:Jesus is regularly doing the little thing. More than 50% of Jesus's miracles were interruptions. He was going somewhere else, he had an agenda for the day and something I don't know that we're very interruptible right now because we have our next seven quarters mapped out to a T? Who could interrupt that? Who can interject with, like our and again, I'm not anti-spreadsheets or metrics or any of that, I think and I'm so grateful for the people that help us kind of make sense of those things I just wonder if the future of the church isn't more ancient than we realize, more monastic.
Speaker 1:There's a Japanese theologian that wrote a book called Three Mile an Hour God. So the whole kind of premise is that the average walking speed is three miles an hour. Jesus walked everywhere. Jesus is fully God, fully man. That means that love has a speed. And this whole kind of premise is if love has a speed, and this whole kind of premise is if love has a speed, is it possible that many of us are missing the activity of God because we're simply going too fast, Like I had a mentor ask me that point blank once. He said Ian, what does your, does your pace of life look like that of someone who actually wants to hear from God, which he knew?
Speaker 1:the answer to that was like shot me to the heart, I think in a lot of ways, the church models all the same hustle and grind culture that everything else, that everyone else does, and I don't see a lot of people choosing to drive a stake in the ground for stillness, for rest, for things even like solitude, fasting. These are, you know, this is the in the, the analogy of the two houses one built on rock, one built on sand. They both hit storms. You're going to hit storms in life regardless. I feel like we spend so much time glorifying the house and missing the foundation. The foundation, I think, are the, that's the formation stuff, that's the spiritual discipline stuff. And I do wonder if, in many ways, we're giving people slogans without like a vision.
Speaker 1:For what does life in Christ look like?
Speaker 1:What does it mean to, as Brother Lawrence put it, practicing the presence of God when I'm washing the dishes, when I'm driving to work, when I'm answering emails? You know, in Catcher in the Rye he says the mark of an immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, but the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. And I think that there's a lot of wisdom in that. My buddy's got a sign over his kitchen sink and it says everyone wants a revolution. No one wants to do the dishes. There's a lot of people right now that are like we're going to do big things for the kingdom and I think that's honorable. I really do. I just wonder if maybe there's some dishes to be washed right now that less and less of us are actually willing to just do the small, maybe quiet thing. That will not get you accolades, will not get you on Oprah, but it's like yeah, I wonder if life in the kingdom actually looks a whole lot more like that than we realize.
Speaker 2:Probably does.
Speaker 1:I think so.
Speaker 2:It's hard though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Incredibly hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, there's a lot of. I mean, I'm sure, especially as a pastor of a pretty big church, especially compared to, you know, other countries.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah.
Speaker 2:Or even other parts of America, like I don't even know how many. I honestly don't know how many people go to the bridge. That's okay. Several thousand, yeah, it doesn't matter At the end of the day, honestly, at the end of the day, because there is like everyone wants to grow, right, businesses want to grow, churches want to grow. I want to grow, like even Jason, the producer of this podcast, and I.
Speaker 2:Before you got here, he was sitting where you are, the producer of this podcast and I, before you got here, he was sitting where you are and we were having a very similar conversation where I said, I said, jason, I like I'm kind of getting sick of comparing either myself or the podcast to others.
Speaker 2:And we had a Devo this morning at work at marriage helper and someone else on the team led it and his main takeaway was it's not just about doing like the things that we, that we think we want to do for God, it's what does God wants, what does God want you to do? Yeah, and asking him to help you do it, because we can't do it without him. Right, and I'm there. I'm like mentally and emotionally, I'm like, yes, god, like do it without him. And I'm there, I'm like, mentally and emotionally, I'm like, yes, god, like whatever it looks like. And then the other part of me is like but also growth.
Speaker 2:Of course, of course, but also like and that's the tension, right, that a lot of us feel. But you're like when we go to scripture and when we think of Jesus or the writings of Paul, and where it just says the things of like just be transformed by the renewing of your mind and love your family and help the widows and the orphans Like there's nothing that points to get a million followers, but it's what we want.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and that's exactly. I'm so glad you said that it is what we want, which means our wants and desires also need to be transformed. This is why I think I think God is interested in what we're doing. I think he's more interested in who we're becoming, and I don't think enough people are asking those types of questions, not just what am I doing and does it check the box of Christian activity? That's a. That's a very revealing, vulnerable question. Who is the person I'm becoming? Ask your spouse that, ask those who work most closely with you, like do I look at the fruit of the spirit? Start there. Yeah, am I embodying these more this year than I was last year? And I would.
Speaker 1:I would not recommend measuring this every 12 minutes, by the way. I think this is a more of an annual metric than like a daily one in general, but that's it. That's exactly why. Because we can't. We can't day cardian, just I think. Therefore, I am. I do not wish for my podcast to be successful anymore. Okay, I'm good, I'm gonna be patient with my child. Huh, just like matrix style beaming pay it. Maybe it works like that for you.
Speaker 1:It does not work for me which means, then, that there's a deeper transformation of the will that needs to happen, and that does not happen by simply like pounding it into my brain Again. I believe that the brain is part of the way that Jesus says we are to love him heart, soul, mind and strength. So we're not to throw it out, but we have, particularly in the West post-enlightenment have so elevated intellectual ascent above all other spiritual disciplines, and I think it's what's gotten us so upside down, because a lot of us are having that exact same thing. I want to be better, I want to beat this addiction, I want to be a gracious husband, I want to be a patient parent, but I'm not. And I pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. And I listened to all these sermons. I'm going to church like a good Christian. I'm in a, I'm doing the things at least in my experience, it's far less than people like. I don't care to be changed In my experience, behind closed doors, everyone wants to be changed. The question is, they don't know how, and I don't think we've done a good job of giving people handles for like. How do I actually begin to like? And we use even phrases like oh, die to self, okay, great, how do I do that then? Because I don't think that it's sinful to want your podcast to grow. I think what you're doing is brilliant and I think more people should hear it. I think that's a reasonable desire.
Speaker 1:But Gustin talks about our disordered loves. He would say something like sin is not only loving the wrong thing, sometimes it's loving the right things in the wrong order. So sometimes it's you make a good thing, a God thing, and that's where stuff starts to get wacky. It's not just oh, I'm tempted to rob a bank and do drugs. You're like no, I sometimes number three things climb up to number one, at least in my life. That's when stuff starts to get a little wacky. But even things like growth, you know, like when? Um, when I was chatting with the bridge before we came down, you know we interviewed for a year, so we had a lot of conversation.
Speaker 2:It's a long interview process.
Speaker 1:And I'm so grateful for the bridge and the bridge leadership and their patience and like taking a real, real deep dive on me. And part of what I told them was hey, I'm not going to be your growth at all costs, guy. What I actually said was lots of things grow fast, including tumors. Like, just because it's growing doesn't mean it's healthy. Sometimes it does, and that is kind of the adage healthy things grow. I think that's true, but the word that is used a lot in the new testament is maturity. Sometimes that doesn't look like up into the right, this quarter better than last quarter. Sometimes it looks like a church moving from spectator to disciple and you might not even see a whole massive explosion to the moon. But, like man, people have moved from being simply recipients of to participants in. That's maturity, that's growth, and I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know that the church has done a great job of celebrating those types of things because they're harder to measure. You know we talk about being with jesus and becoming like him for the sake of the world. Every week people are like how do I measure that? I'm like you're not gonna like my answer. It's really hard to met. You don't graduate from one like, okay, I'm done being with Jesus. Now I move to becoming like Jesus. Right now I'm enough like Jesus. Now I'll move to for the sake of the world, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like it's it is nebulous, intentionally so, but I do think, uh, I think I think you're right on, I think, being more honest about what our wants actually are. That does start with vulnerability, and I appreciate you saying that, because I think as long as we are unwilling to actually be honest about our wants, desires, what's actually going on in our head, that's a very difficult thing to transform if we're not willing to even articulate what's in there. And that requires safety. To say, hey, that requires, pastor, saying you know what? I've made a lot of decisions this last year just to try to grow a bigger church and I need to confess that to you all and I need you to help me. That's a very, that's a very difficult thing to say, but, by guarantee, once someone does, 10 other people in the room will go. Be too Right, and that's the gift of, like you were saying, that's the gift of community.
Speaker 2:The next question I'm about to ask is a very weird one. I love it Even, just even just the way it's worded and you're I don't know. We're just going to see what happens. Do you think the devil answers prayers?
Speaker 1:Oh, say more about that. What do you mean?
Speaker 2:Do you think, do you think, that the devil, like the enemy and his forces, can hear the things that are the desires of our hearts, maybe when they're not yet aligned?
Speaker 1:to.
Speaker 2:God's and that they could hear it and be like I. Could grant that and continue to take the desire away from what God is actually wanting.
Speaker 1:I like that question. I like that question. I think, okay. So if the way that we are taught to pray includes God, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven implies that there are places on earth where his kingdom has not fully come, where his will is not being done, I don't think I probably have to convince anyone of that. People will be like yeah, no, duh. I think that I mean think I probably have to convince anyone of that. People will be like, yeah, no, duh. I think that I mean.
Speaker 1:Think of even some of the titles that we were given of Satan, the Satan deceiver, a roaring lion, right, those almost seem like contradictory, a little bit Like why would you? Are you going to devour me? You're just going to trick me, or like I think it's, there's, there's layers to that, even. But I think I think the enemy is like an expert in parody of counterfeit. It's sort of like I think of the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. You know those were. Those weren't just about hey, you're hungry, you want some bread? Make some bread. Like at the surface it was like yeah, man, just what's the harm in that? That didn't seem sinful, it was about something else. It was about loyalty, it was about allegiance, it was about identity. There's a lot more going on there too.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think that there's plenty of counterfeits that the enemy throws our way in every domain. I believe that something like sex was a gift that was given to us from God, meant to be used in a very kind of intentional way, and so any of these like perversions of that is that wasn't the enemy's idea. That's a distortion of what God's desire was for us, and so I think those counterfeits I think we are. This is why I think it's so important for us to use the language of the gospels, know the voice of the good shepherd, because something that is someone who is a master at deception, if they're offering a counterfeit and we don't recognize the difference between the voices, that'll look very similar to us.
Speaker 1:I think that's where a lot of temptation falls. You're like that doesn't seem like a bad thing. Most people I know are not tempted to commit felonies Some people but by and large it's like this, what I would almost call morally neutral space. I think that is way more dangerous than people realize. The amount of times I've had people come up to me and say show me the chapter and verse that says I can't do this.
Speaker 1:I had a guy show me a chapter and verse that says I can't watch 15 hours of SportsCenter on a Saturday. I'm like you're right, there's no verse for that. My guess is, though, that you're probably not being attentive to your wife and kids if you're watching 15 hours of SportsCenter, so maybe that's not the best use of your time, but I do think that morally neutral space is like, maybe, where the enemy does his best work. This is in CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters. He talks about man. If they have great victory or great sorrow, man, they'll. They'll run back to the father, but if we can keep them distracted, keep them bickering, keep them fighting about stuff that doesn't really matter, he's like, then we'll win the war.
Speaker 1:I just think that's so haunting, cause I look at my own life and I'm like yeah, maybe, maybe the greatest thing that's, you know, maybe the greatest thing we're battling is we're just, we're not focused on the right things. We're reaching for our phone every 12 seconds, and we're more shaped by the news than we are God's word, and those are all like counterfeits. I think that's part of how the enemy works. It's like you want this right, you want a little more dopamine? Hit, just scroll Instagram for another 15 minutes. What's that going to? Where's the harm in that?
Speaker 1:And I think that's where, in a lot of ways, the drift happens. And I said this before, like, formation is not a Christian thing, it's a human thing. We are all being formed by someone or something. The question is do you actually know what it is? So when people are like, oh, I'm not really a spiritual formation person, I'm like, it's too late, you're already alive as a human, you're being formed in some trajectory. The question is do you actually know by whom? And I think that in many ways, is the way that the to your question the enemy can answer our prayers, but in a way that is a counterfeit that leads us not to a life of flourishing, but the opposite. Sure.
Speaker 2:How can you hear the voice of God? How do you know it's his voice?
Speaker 1:It's a great question. I think there are a couple of things that, to me, are constants. I think his word, but less like you ever do, the like I'm just going to drop the Bible and hope that it opens to a page where I get like a direct answer to my. I think it's less like that I think about honestly, and even in my marriage, like if you asked me tell me about Katie, I wouldn't tell you her height and her eye color. I could. I know it like oh man, when she hears this song by Gregory Allen, Isaac off, like she just comes alive. And when I watch her like dance with my boys at the end of a long night and she like lets her goofy side out and there's just like a knowing that, um, there's no one data point that encapsulates it perfectly. It's like, oh no, I've just I've seen the way that she dances with him and I've watched the way that she grieves over this like brokenness in her own life and like there's a knowing there that doesn't it didn't have, I didn't cross a threshold, it wasn't like October 5th. I now, I now know my wife. I just spent time with her. I like know how she breathes. You know what I mean. Like I know, I know when she doesn't feel great about an outfit that she put on, like I just know those things about her, and that's hard to quantify, I think.
Speaker 1:But I think that's part of what scripture does for us. It's less about like, give me that one. We far too often treat the word of God like a magic eight ball. Give me the answer. Should I date her? Gosh, I gotta do it again. It didn't work and so we often give up.
Speaker 1:I think a life immersed in scripture attunes us to the voice of God. I think, obviously, things like prayer, silence, stillness, but also and this one, for some reason I don't think it's enough street cred, it's gospel community. The amount of times people have come to me and I'm really honored by it. People come to their pastor like, hey, should I do this or should I do this? And I'll say what does your community think? More often than not, people are like, well, I don't know, I haven't talked to them about it. I. And more often than not, people are like, well, I don't know, I haven't talked to them about it.
Speaker 1:I'm like you mean the people that you're doing life with, that like you're in the word of God together and you're sharing, like they have a front row seat to what God's doing in your life and they are given to you to help you discern those things, and that, I think, is desperately needed. It's not just I need to go into my prayer closet although that's part of it and just simply discern. I think it also is. Hey, you know me better than most people and you've seen the way that we walked through this journey. I have these two opportunities in front of me. Would you spend the next week just in prayer and fasting for me which, by the way, fasting will get a lot of eyebrow raises, but that's something that a mentor? I was so embarrassed, I was right out of undergrad and a big decision, and I said what should I do? And he said well, you've you fasted about it? Yeah, and I was like no, no, why, why would I do that?
Speaker 2:And he goes one.
Speaker 1:It's very biblical.
Speaker 1:I was like, all right way to Jesus, juke me right out of undergrad, jeez, louise. And that's, and again, not a magic potion, it's not a. It's not a way to like trick God, or. But I do think there is something I mean it's worth noting. Jesus doesn't say if you fast. He says when you fast.
Speaker 1:There's a certain almost assumption that that's like a part of our rhythms in some capacity, not in any legalistic way, but I have found that to be a a really underutilized but deeply meaningful practice for me when faced with a big decision. So I think it's a myriad of things and it's also in many ways like feels like a retirement fund. I feel like sometimes, if we're like not, we don't do any of those things, then we're faced with a fork in the road and we like instantly want to draw on some account that we haven't been investing in. I think, yeah, spending time in God's word, with his people, in prayer and silence, even when we don't desperately need a decision or a voice, or I think those are the times, that's how we, that's how you get to know the voice of the good shepherd is just by simply spending time with them.
Speaker 1:And also, that includes silence, by the way, if, if you're in conversation with God and you're doing all the talking, some something is wrong. Fulton Sheen said um, silence is the soul's language, like in the face of absolute, the face of absolute truth. Silence is the soul's language. That hit me like a ton of bricks about 10 years ago. I was like boy, I talk at God a lot. I don't know that I've actually even given him much space to even possibly speak back and that has been transformative for me.
Speaker 2:When you talked about fasting.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's just a lot of even internal like internally something rises up where it's like oh. I love food. Yeah, same Like. Oh, that's like the last one I want to do. But I think the other reason people myself for sure, included here struggle with this one is because it's like well, how?
Speaker 1:When.
Speaker 2:Yep, what is it? If it's 24 hours? When does it start? Of course, when does it Like? Where's the prescription of how to fast, right? How do you?
Speaker 1:fast. I don't think there is one. I knew, I knew you were going to end the question there. I don't think there is one and I do think that does. That doesn't surprise me, and I'm wired the same way, Like just tell me how, tell me. Like if you challenge me to it, I'll do it and then add an extra day just for kicks. I know plenty of people. I know like Dallas Willard used to fast every morning before preaching or speaking anywhere, just as a spiritual discipline. I don't eat because I would throw up.
Speaker 1:That's why that's a whole different, not nearly as spiritual. But I know other people that like make a weekly, a weekly rhythm of it, some people a monthly rhythm of it. Some people do it with people. I think there's there's so many, there's probably some safeguards, like I know other people will fast, but really is to like lose some, lose some pounds. I'm like that's not what, that's not what that's for.
Speaker 1:It does feel like fasting is like real hot right now and that can be tricky because like, oh, is this a? Is this to trick our body into burning more LBs? You're like I don't. Again, that's not a bad by-product, but if that's the aim, it's something. It's something different. But it's also not to trick God. It's not a God's, not some celestial pinata and he's like, well, I would give you the answer if you would just fast. Like I told you to. I don't think that's if we understand God is good. Father, I don't talk, I don't talk to my kids like that. I'm assuming you don't talk to yours like that, like, wow, I would totally help you on this journey, but you didn't do the, you didn't face the right direction when you asked me. So hard pass. I think it does something to us.
Speaker 1:I also think there's a whole other component. This is a different podcast, maybe, but there's a solidarity with the poor that fasting was meant, I think, to stir in us when we go hungry, when we deprive our bodies of what it physically needs. That is not a knock on those who are like I'm fasting from social media. I think that's wise. I think that's maybe something different than biblical fasting maybe, where, when you're depriving your body of what it physically needs, to remind ourselves of our dependence on God, when we feel physical hunger as a prompt to pray, to go to him, as a reminder, like man, I am not on the throne, and that's actually really good news for everybody. I think that's something different. Now, obviously, jesus didn't have smartphones and Facebook, so maybe that would be included, but I do think, yeah, it is not a very popular topic right now and I definitely understand why.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us about the week you decided to be homeless?
Speaker 1:What in the world?
Speaker 2:are these questions.
Speaker 1:How did you know? Did I mention that in a sermon? Yeah, you did. Did I kind of just like sneak it in and then move on Pretty much what happened. I could tell from some of the expressions People are like wait, what you did, what now Backup? Yeah, it wasn't even like a main point of this, yeah, yeah. How much do you want to know?
Speaker 2:What led you to do it? What was it like? What changed in your life after?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'd want it to. For as long as I could remember my parents are some of the most beautiful faithful Jesus people I know, and we disagree on a lot, but they you know, growing up outside Detroit, there's a thing called Meals on Wheels. I think we maybe have that here. You know, grownups outside Detroit, there's a thing called meals on wheels. I think we maybe have that here. From as early as I can remember, even like there was a conviction on, like on Christmas, before we open any gifts, we're going to go serve some people, we're just going to go love on people. That was just like I'm so grateful for them and that that was just so ingrained. And from that you know, uh, we would help at soup kitchens. My parents for a long time hosted a breakfast in the basement of our church. My, my dad would drive a bus and pick everyone up and my mom would prepare this enormous meal for 80 homeless men and women. Like just, it's just. I was always just around and I had always wanted to. I had discovered somewhere in that I was like man. I was always just around and I had always wanted to. I had discovered somewhere in that I was like man. I'm always the one serving and they're the ones being served. Like, no matter how many times we both come here, there's still going to be a hierarchical chasm that I was always interested in trying to break down. And it was lovely, and you get to know people's stories and names, but they still knew I'm the one serving're the one being served.
Speaker 1:And so I talked about it for a while with one friend in particular, and anytime we got close to kind of making it happen, he would bail and I don't. I don't know what happened, but finally I was like I'm just gonna do it. So I had a couple rules for myself. Um, I would only I could only use the money that I panhandled for. So, like I uh bought a little guitar and I wanted to go to a city where I didn't know anybody, so that I couldn't like bail, and I got hard, cause I knew that. I knew that it was going to be harder than I thought, and so I didn't know anybody in Philadelphia. So I literally just bought a plane ticket and, um, from the airport, there's like a little trolley guy and he said where to, and I said the city, and he said where in the city, and I was like the middle. I like I literally didn't know. He's like, okay, so he drops me off and, uh, learned a lot of hard lessons really quickly. One I'm not very good at guitar, so that was rough.
Speaker 1:So the first couple of days you know I was the first night I slept outside a hotel and they, they kicked me out of there. So I was like, definitely, just find it. It was kind of rainy, I wasn't, I didn't make any money, so I think it had been two solid days before I'd eaten anything. And now I'm starting to freak out a little bit because this is not going how I had, how I had planned.
Speaker 1:I remember overhearing someone talk about soup kitchens or something. I remember asking a guy like hey, can you, can you give me some some Intel on on where, where these soup kitchens are? And he got, he just he gave me this list of like all the different churches and rescue missions, and it was. I was like I think I was really emphatic in my gratitude because I hadn't eaten yet and he said he's like, man, it's not a black thing or a white thing, it's a belly thing and we're all hungry and that, like that just stuck with me for some reason. So I got, I got a meal and then I found this little community that had been sleeping under the overpass and I got to know these four or five people from there real quickly.
Speaker 1:And one guy I couldn't believe it. He had a big piece of cardboard. He was sleeping on under this bridge and when I told him I was like trying to figure out you know where to stay, without even thinking about it he like ripped this cardboard in half right away and he's like all right, you'll sleep on this. Like just, it was instant generosity. It was such a wild experience. But I think part of what I mentioned on Sunday was I was not prepared for how people would avoid me and like avoid eye contact, walk to the other side of the street, clutch their purse, like after just a week that I and that like did something to my soul. That I thought, man, if I'm feeling the effects of this after seven days, I can't imagine after seven years. Like you're very I was much more aware of it than I think that I would be, but experiencing the generosity of this community and some of the stuff that they said, some of the stuff that like it was really simple.
Speaker 1:One guy in particular. His story was so ordinary. He was a laborer and one day on the job he he busted his arm. He didn't have any disability assurance and he didn't heal right. So he's out of work for like way longer than he planned to, and then he couldn't afford rent and he was kicked out of his house and that was was 12 years ago, like it just there was no, and something that like really struck me was I have been given this social net, this family that I didn't earn or deserve. Like 150 people would have to die for me to end up on the street. They would all say, well then you'll stay in our guest room, you'll stay on our couch, like. That just became so clear to me so quickly.
Speaker 1:Like this Community that I didn't do anything To earn or deserve Would keep me from ever ending up In a space like that, and some of these stories Were like I just didn't have anybody, I didn't know, or I started selling drugs, or I started whatever it was Like it's.
Speaker 1:But before that, though, I was like a. I was a middle-class dad, I was working at the steel mill, like really strangely ordinary stories, and that felt like that was a perspective shift for me, the other thing that was really hard was going to some of these rescue missions and soup kitchens Some of them were really lovely and others were not and so getting like a peek behind from that perspective, as as someone being served, that that changed something in me as a pastor and the the kinds of ministries that I wanted to be a part of. And now it's I mean, now it's been, oh gosh, 20 years. Like some of those stories, I, I, I think are just going to be with me forever, but have have shaped, have shaped my thinking, I think, in ways that I, I don't even, I don't even yet fully understand.
Speaker 2:It kind of goes back to that hospitality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, mindset, exactly.
Speaker 2:At lunch. I don't know why this came up at lunch today, but one of our team members we were talking about tithing and one of our team members was talking about how it was interesting in the Old Testament like the sacrificial law, the way it included protections for people who were foreigners outskirts you know homeless.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it was. I mean they said it was like the only religion that had the that built into it, and it just makes me think about our society now, and I mean sure there's like government programs and but there's such an opportunity to love on those people Isn't there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, and I think it's. It's far more expansive than people realize. Like, yes, obviously, the meal, like food, shelter our, our physical needs, which I think is absolutely brilliant and necessary. Also, think of, like the number of times Jesus touches the leper. That needs, which I think is absolutely brilliant and necessary. I also think of, like the number of times Jesus touches the leper that he heals, is so compelling to me because I'm a.
Speaker 1:This is just conjecture, this is not doctrine. I'm assuming he could have just like pointed at him and they were good, right, just sort of like Jesus, laser fingers, just boom, you're good. Why would he? Why would would he? Why bother touching him? Yeah, in many cases maybe it had been decades since that person had ever even been touched. I mean, by law they had to shout unclean everywhere they walked and everyone would, everyone would step back, usually in horror, and this rabbi comes along. It doesn't just heal him, does what maybe they haven't experienced in a long, long time and like touches them.
Speaker 1:I think, man, if we're given meals but we're not making eye contact, like, we're missing a big part of the incarnational ministry of Jesus. I think it's part of why the incarnation matters. It shows that physicality matters. The material world has something to teach us of Jesus, of the kingdom. So if I'm just yeah, man, if I'm just chucking coins out the window, that person might be grateful, but I think, in the way of Jesus, it's looking them in the eye and saying what's your name, man, what's your story? That, I think, is often the added piece that is missed, and it's what I felt so intensely, I think, being on the streets is that, yeah, some people did the charitable thing. But you could tell I'm trying to get out of here as fast as possible and I'm not trying to prescribe anyone do anything one particular way over the other. I just think there's an incarnational side to ministry that can be lost when we're in a hurry, when we're only digital, when we're too distracted.
Speaker 1:You know, those are often, I think, the enemies to incarnational hospitality, which is much slower, it's messier, but even I mean, think about the metaphors Jesus uses for the kingdom. He talks about yeast and bread, dough, mustard, seeds. Those are like slow, small things and we're so addicted to fast and results and you know what I mean. Like incarnational ministry takes time and a lot of us. That's the thing that we don't have, you know.
Speaker 2:So how? How did we get more time?
Speaker 1:You can't, you don't get more time. You make choices. I, I think that there's. I have a coach who says there are no decisions, only trade-offs. Me saying yes to a speaking engagement might mean me saying no to being at my kid's game. Is that a? Is that a trade-off that I'm willing to make? Most of us are pretty good at making to-do lists. I don't know anyone who's making not do lists or stop doing lists. You know those are, those are. That's a harder list to make, I think, because of a number of factors, because we live in a hustle culture and because we measure our identity and value by our accomplishment and performance and all those things. I have asked that question.
Speaker 1:I became a father a little bit later in life. Most of my peers did the baby thing like a decade ago, which I understand why. Now I'm just tired. I'm tired man.
Speaker 1:But I will say, the silver lining, though, of doing it a little bit later in life is I feel like I have a much better appreciation for time. I think if I had started having babies in my early 20s, I would have blinked and they'd be moving out this year, and I, it is, I am. It is a grace to me that I I feel very keenly aware of. I look at my six year old. Six year old, I'm like. I have you as a six year old for such a brief window. I don't want to miss it. I don't want to miss it. I don't want to miss it. It's Jacob wrestling with God. Surely God was in this place and I was unaware of it. I don't want to live my life unaware of the activity of God. So I can't add, I can't add any more time to the 24 hours that each of us has given, but I can make choices that say that might be a good thing, it's not the best thing, that might be an opportunity or a whatever. I don't think that's not the most important thing right now, and those are very hard decisions to make, At least for me.
Speaker 1:I like saying yes to everything. I always have a little bit of FOMO. That's never gone away. Maybe that's the homeschool kid in me, I don't know. That does not come naturally at all. But if I enough times, though, have thought God, I think I might be missing what it is that you want to do in me and my family by simply saying yes to everything. Give me the courage to say no to good things so that I can say yes to the best things. And I, I'm I'm still growing there. I got a long way to go, I think, but it's, I think it's a worthy prayer and one that we probably all need in some capacity.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. We have covered the gamut in topics today. We sure have no kidding, no kidding, I just am sitting here thinking I should have taken notes on every section Of all we've talked about. What would you say, is the key takeaway you would want to leave with listeners who are wanting to be closer to Jesus.
Speaker 1:I think the thing that was so transformative for me was that God's presence is never what's lacking. We're always in God's presence. What's often lacking is our awareness of it, my awareness of it. So that has just become a constant. You know, like what Ignatius would call, just like a breath prayer. Lord, make me aware of your presence right here, in this mundane moment, not just right before I go speak to a crowd full of people or before I've finished the chapter of this, whatever like. Make me aware of your presence. Make me aware of your presence Like that's what we've been saying at the bridge, at this table, as it is in heaven. This is a table.
Speaker 1:I prayed that prayer before we started. Lord, would this be even just the smallest glimpse of your kingdom breaking through right here, right here now? I don't think there is any more important thing to keep before our consciousness. God, make me aware of what it is that you're doing right here and now. My buddy Hugh talks about kingdom. Work is like archeology, he says. We're never bringing Jesus anywhere. Jesus is already at work in your neighborhood and with your crazy uncle and at your job. Our role as Christians is to unearth where God is already at work and join him in it. So that's just become, in this season, my prayer with my kid at my work on the commute, answering emails. Lord, make me aware of your presence, make me more aware of your presence in the mundane of this moment. I want to join you in whatever you're doing, and the big and the small and everything in between. I think that sounds pretty unremarkable, but I think it is one of the most profound things that we could pray.
Speaker 2:Amen, and this has been an absolute honor and pleasure.
Speaker 1:Likewise Thank you for the invite. I love what you guys are doing. I'm seriously grateful. I'm honored.
Speaker 2:What an amazing conversation. I am so glad that that was recorded and that it's something that all of the listeners can hear. I was personally edified and encouraged by that conversation and I hope that there were pieces of it that really latched onto your soul as well. I believe that the key takeaways from this episode are going to be different for every single person, because we covered so many different types of conversations, all the way from hospitality to spiritual warfare, in a sense, to slowing down and listening to what God is calling us into, to how do we actually hear from God. I'll share with you in my key takeaways literally that what my key takeaways are for me in this season of my life, based on the conversation I just had with Ian. First, for me, it was really interesting for me that today, the theme that came up in Ian's episode was to slow down, to get in line with the rhythms of how Jesus lived, which wasn't rushed and wasn't hurried and actually wasn't focused on gaining large amounts of followers or friends, but it was really based on following the call and the purpose that God had for him on his life, which, of course, is the biggest and highest calling God has ever had for anyone. Jesus was God and human, and Jesus wasn't interested in gaining the followers. He was interested in people coming to know God and loving God and trusting God and following God. That is what his interest was, and so it comes at an interesting time in my life, as the past couple of months there's been a lot of growth in really great areas at the companies that I'm a part of and things that are happening. But also internally there's been a lot of questions of what should my focus be and what is my part in all of this and how can we make sure as a company me even as a person that I'm not just following growth but that I'm following God. And so actually, by the time you watch this episode, I will be on sabbatical and I'm taking an intentional time away from the company, from my normal daily habits and routines, to rest and to spend time with God, to come back with a different rhythm of life. That's my goal, that's my intention. So this episode was a really great pathway for me, a foundation, so to say. That kind of sets up, that time of me even preparing to go into these couple of this time of sabbatical that I'm going to be on. But that was the takeaway for me.
Speaker 2:What are the takeaways for you and I'm sure you have some, because this was a really impactful episode I would love to hear about those. If you are watching on YouTube, leave them in the comments. What was your key takeaway? If you're listening on podcast, be sure that you're following the show, and then you can always find Kimberly Beam Holmes on Instagram or go and follow us on YouTube and leave a comment in the chat there or in the comment field there. We always love to hear from you. Comment in the chat there or in the comment field there. We always love to hear from you. But really, what's more important than hearing from you is that you hear from God. Until next week, stay strong.