Introverts vs. Extroverts with Rob Holmes

Introverts versus extroverts... Which one is better?

We all know there is not one that is better or worse. Although, most of the time in relationships, we act like one is. In today's episode, Kimberly Holmes and her husband Rob Holmes discuss how personality types affect relationships.

Listen to this episode to learn different tools to better understand people in relationships.

Today's Speakers: Kimberly and Rob Holmes

Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master’s degree in psychology for over 10 years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching the ways that attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reaches over 200,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best that they can be.  

Website: www.PIESUniversity.com

You’ll Learn

• How personality types affect relationships
• Tips to use personality types as tools to better understand your significant other
• How to be attentive to other people's needs

Ep 040: Introverts vs. Extroverts, with Rob Holmes.

Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships


Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.

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Transcript

Kimberly Holmes: 0:00

introverts versus extroverts, which one is better? Well, we all know there's not one that is better or worse than the other. Although, most of the time in our relationships, we kind of act like that, don't we? We are unwilling to give the other person what they may need. And we are more than willing to tell the other person in the relationship, everything we need and why they need to listen to us when we're not being attentive to them. This is the downfall I see a lot of people fall into when it comes to differences in personalities, no matter what measure we're using to measure that. introverts, extroverts Myers Briggs types, personality styles, with disc profiles, or even enneagram types. All of these are simply tools to help us understand the person that we're in relationship with, better, we need to use them to the best of our ability. In today's episode, I am joined by a very special guest, who is going to be talking with me about introverts and extroverts. I am more extroverted My guest is way more introverted than I am. And we talked about how we have worked this out in our relationship. Spoiler alert, this guest is my husband. I'm so excited to share this episode with you because we had a really great conversation. And I'm glad that my husband finally came out of his shell and joined me on a podcast episode. I believe he did a great job. I would love to hear what do you think about our conversation as well? Let's dive in. Hey, my name is Kimberly beam Holmes. And this is it starts with attraction, where we discuss how to become the most attractive that you can be physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually, or is this insiders call it the pies, you can become more attractive to others and most importantly, to yourself, we will teach you how let's dive in. If you've ever wanted to know what your attractiveness score is, then I have a free guide that you're going to want to go and download. Now I'm going to tell you that this isn't going to be like those quizzes or surveys or tests that you see online that are like how hot Are you or how sexy are you. Because I think those end up making people feel worse about themselves at the end than ever before. This free attraction assessment guide that I have created is a no gimmicks truthful and honest representation of how you can assess yourself and see the areas of attraction that you feel most confident in. And the areas of attraction where you need opportunity for growth. It's not going to be done in a way that makes you feel worse about yourself, but is going to give you real tools and tactics that you can begin to implement after you know which areas you should focus a little more on and which ones you're already slaying. You can go and get your free guide, it starts with attraction.com you'll see the opt in form in the lower right hand corner. And it'll be emailed to you immediately. I can't wait to hear about your results and your scores. And the way that you decide to make some changes in your life so that you can be the most attractive that you can be. Go and get your free guide at it starts with attraction.com. I am joined today by perhaps the most special guest that I have ever been joined by, which puts you up there with some pretty amazing people just want to let you know, because today's guest is my husband, Robert Holmes.

Rob Holmes: 3:37

Thank you so much.

Kimberly Holmes: 3:39

You're welcome. It's exciting. And today we are going to talk about a topic that has been quite an interesting part of our marriage for the past 10 years, we can say now we just celebrated our 10 year anniversary, which is introverts and extroverts. And I'm sure all of you listening can already tell which is which. On that scheme of things.

Rob Holmes: 4:05

The whole podcast is going to be Kimberly talking and me saying from time to prove that point.

Kimberly Holmes: 4:11

You're just gonna be sitting over in the corner with a cap.

Rob Holmes: 4:13

Yes. And a book

Kimberly Holmes: 4:16

doing something. Well, here's what's so going back to when Robin I first got married. I don't know if you remember this. I tell this story all the time. How. So we had been dating long distance, right for 10 months. And so every time we saw each other was over a two or three day weekend. And so what I saw of you was someone who loved to do things and go out and be with people because I was seeing you once every like two or three weeks for a couple of days. Every time I was with you so we were out doing things having so much fun. And then we got married. We are living down in Fort Rucker, Alabama and And all of a sudden, like you come home from work, and you're like, leave me alone. I need alone time. Yeah. How do you in your mind? How do you remember this happening? Barely. You barely cuz you're so stressful flight school. I remember you saying I'm an introvert I need alone time. And I said to you, that's not real. You're making it up.

Rob Holmes: 5:25

You were a psychology major.

Kimberly Holmes: 5:29

Yes.

Rob Holmes: 5:31

The concept of introverts and extroverts established by Carl Jung, I think in 1923.

Kimberly Holmes: 5:36

Yeah, the 1920s

Rob Holmes: 5:38

is basically the premise for those who are just tuning in and wondering, is it First of all, is it real? And second of all, what what are introverts and extroverts? Which one, are you? And does it really even matter that much? If you're unfamiliar with the concept, in a nutshell, I'm going to break it down, and I'm going to oversimplify it just like Carl Jung did in 1923. To say that introverts generally are introspective, they look inward, they like to spend time alone from time to time, they would often rather read a book than go a place. If they do go somewhere, they may want to go somewhere that provides solace like they may want to go hiking to the top of a mountain where they can spend some time perhaps meditating or something. But as we'll see, and as we'll likely discuss later, many extroverts love that type of thing, too. extroverts generally love people, and they focus outward, oftentimes on people. And that's important. But they will there's so much crossover between introverts and extroverts that you could say that a very large majority of people are actually ambiverts, who simply fall more on the scale toward introverted or extroverted. With that being said, if I do subscribe to that belief, that in that case, I'm not really an introvert and you're not really an extrovert. We're both ambiverts I fall on the introverted side, just barely, by the way, and you fall on the extroverted side somewhere. And studies show that or should I say that some psychologists say that the closer you are to the middle of the spectrum, in other words, if you're an introvert, you're barely an introvert. If you're an extrovert, you're barely an extrovert. They say that's kind of the target territory to be so as close to being an ambivert, or a true ambivert. As as possible. Although whether or not it's actually possible to be a true ambivert is unknown, but most people fall somewhere on on a sliding scale toward introvert or extrovert. Some people are so extreme toward one side or another, you could likely classify them as an introvert or an extrovert, but those people are very rare. If they're an introvert, you never see him around, right? I looked up a few studies on the internet that found that let me ask you this question. Who do you think would be happier extroverts or introverts? Pop quiz on the screen.

Kimberly Holmes: 8:17

I'm not looking at the screen on your computer. But I also feel like I've seen this before in other things. So you would think it's extroverts. But I feel like the answer is introverts.

Rob Holmes: 8:28

No, it's extroverts.

Kimberly Holmes: 8:29

It is extrovert I should have gone with my gut. It is extroverts.

Rob Holmes: 8:32

And but here's the kicker. here's the kicker about this. And I want to pull this I'm going to pull the study up in a moment and actually cite the study right now I'm just going to talk about some of the findings because I forgot to put accreditation in my notes. So I'm gonna have to go look that up before or after I talked about it, but simply put, the study found that the quality of relationships and emotional self regulation was generally higher in extroverts. And it is theorized that that is why they were generally found to be happier, because they found that introverts who had high quality relationships, and high emotional self regulation were more or less just as happy as the extroverts. The problem is that introverts are not as social. And so they naturally find themselves not having as high of quality of social relationships. There was also a strong tie. We don't know if it's causational or just correlative, but there was a strong tie between the quality of social relationships and emotional self regulation. In other words, if I have very high quality of social relationships, I am more likely as a person to be able to emotionally self regulate in a healthy way, not have outbursts and things like that and therefore In theory be happier.

Kimberly Holmes: 10:03

Hmm. So how would you define self regulation?

Rob Holmes: 10:06

personally? Yeah, because I didn't look at what they defined it as,

Kimberly Holmes: 10:11

how would you define when you hear the ability

Rob Holmes: 10:14

to self soothe on some level? The ability to process and handle one's emotions in a healthy manner? In other words, you know, if they get my drink order wrong at Starbucks, do I go off on the barista and scream and make a scene? Or do I say, you know what, it's just a Starbucks drink. I'm lucky to be in as in a society that even has a Starbucks. Yeah. So I think that that's kind of how I personally, but whether or not a professional, you know, you, PhD student people would would define it that way? I don't know.

Kimberly Holmes: 10:52

I think that i think that's I mean, when you look at research, you'll see that they use really interesting terms, like self regulation, to define basically what you said, because they have to have a way, a word that defines that. But let's go back just for a minute and talk about how. So yeah, 10 years ago, when I was like, that's not real. You're making that up. Because the reason I said that and felt that at that time in our marriage was because I felt like you were using it as an excuse to not be with me. And you were using this like a psychological principle to justify what you wanted. And I think that's what people in general can do. Like I did, I probably did that right back towards you have it? Well, I'm an extrovert. And so I need us to go to parties and for us to be spontaneous. And I think for relationships, it can get really bad. It can go downhill pretty quickly, when we start using things to justify our actions, as opposed to simply using these things as tools to give us greater insight into ourselves into our spouse, that can help us understand each other better, as opposed to, I have to do this or you have to do this because it is how I am because then it's like you're trying to give yourself a free pass to do whatever you want.

Rob Holmes: 12:17

Yes, if if putting a label on yourself causes you to act in an antisocial or perhaps a hyper social manner. Or if it's used as an excuse to behave in a way that is not commonly found to be acceptable, or if it's an excuse to act in a manner that just is, you know, harmful to your marital relationship, I would recommend not using that shield. I have done it, especially toward the beginning of our marriage. It's like oh, well, I'm an introvert. Leave me alone. I want to play World of Warcraft for 12 hours straight all day, every day instead of actually be married. So yeah, I would say don't use that as as a shield to just be selfish. Now, it's, I think it's important to understand where you may fall on the introvert extrovert line, just so you understand more about yourself. But that you don't take that label and then run in a certain behavioral direction. That may be not good. Right.

Kimberly Holmes: 13:23

Right.

Rob Holmes: 13:23

I am not finding that study.

Kimberly Holmes: 13:27

That's fine.

Rob Holmes: 13:29

Yeah,it's out there. It's there. It's on the internet.

Kimberly Holmes: 13:33

People can find it if they want to scour through 1000s of research articles, I will go ahead and tell you it's not super fun. So just let me or us recapitulate and tell me what they're about. Yeah, I agree with that. But But then there's this other part of it, which is going back to the definitions of both of them at the beginning, introverts are more likely to get energy be energized by time alone. extroverts are more likely to get energized through time with other people, right?

Rob Holmes: 14:08

Yes, and I've heard a psychologist say that is at least the metrics he had been taught to us. That is really kind of that's where the buck stops, like an extrovert recharges their mental and emotional batteries with other people. an introvert recharges their mental and emotional batteries alone. Almost everyone is an ambivert. On some level you will find people who are typically extroverted they need to go be alone for a little while to recharge. People who are introverted need to go be around other people. I know that there are times where I have really been especially during the COVID lockdown and things it's like I really want to go be around some people I feel like that would charge me up spiritually mentally emotionally in a way I'm still I still identify as more introverted but but I I'm an introvert who doesn't always like being around people, but I like people, that makes any sense. And you'll have extroverts who like being around other people, because that's kind of their thing. That's their Mojo. But then they don't like other people. They don't like the people they hang out with. And it's probably not a very good, right combination. So, at least what I remember in undergrad, the psychologists who came to visit us and talk about our Myers Briggs results. And of course, I quizzed him on stuff and was, and he basically said that that's that is essentially, as core foundation. What defines introvert versus extrovert is how do you recharge your mental, emotional and spiritual batteries? Is it time alone or time with other people? And everyone's going to do a little bit of both, but which one? Do you do more of? Yeah.

Kimberly Holmes: 15:52

And earlier, when you talked about extremes on either side, probably are not healthy. Yes. And the goal is to be more towards this middle. So the ambivert is that middle side? Or that middle part? Right? Where you could you can be both? I can see that because the more extroverted someone is where they always have to be around people, there's probably something inside of them. That is seeking validation, right? And so that is probably spurring that which isn't healthy, or the introvert who's wanting to disassociate from people be alone more, there's probably something keeping him whether it's a social anxiety or self belief, like there's something that's stopping them from wanting to be around people. So the extremes of both of those, I think that's important to identify, too. If someone's listening, and they're saying, well, I really don't like being around people, I'm, I'm very introverted. Then ask yourself, why? What is it that is stopping you? Because we do need human connection, we do need that social part to us. And then same for the people who are extroverts, if you're always needing to be around people, and you can't stand a moment of silence? What's going on there? Do you remember a couple years ago when I went on that Silent Retreat? Yes. So for what, what was it three days, I went to a silent monastery, no one talked, no one talked for three days. It was silent. I didn't use my phone. I didn't have my, my, what is it laptop? And it was terrible. And not in the way you might think, like, I got so anxious, because I realized all of these things, TV, my phone, talking with other people. Were also distractions, so that I didn't have to think about harder things that were that ended up coming up. In my mind. During that time, I was alone, I was alone with my thoughts. And that was scary.

Rob Holmes: 18:00

As an introvert, being alone with my thoughts is mandatory every day.

Kimberly Holmes: 18:06

I know because we go to bed at like 9pm. And you spend an hour just thinking Yes. And I'm asleep in like five. Because I don't want to think.

Rob Holmes: 18:17

and then you wake up earlier than me because I was up for an hour just thinking and that's my time alone with my thoughts.

Kimberly Holmes: 18:23

But what's important so what is important about introverts and extroverts, for people in relationship to know whether it's married couples, or they're thinking about their kids, like the relationships we have with other people? What have we learned in our marriage being different about how to communicate with each other in this manner?

Rob Holmes: 18:46

So I think the first thing I would say to my fellow self identifying introverts, is there's a, there's a few things. First of all, don't use the label of introvert, as an excuse to be antisocial or selfish. That will harm the quality of your relationships or leads into my second point. If you want to be happy, you need to place an emphasis on the quality of relationships in your life. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, it tends to come more naturally for extroverts. introverts must be intentional about it. The good thing about us introverts is that because we're introspective intentionality is kind of our middle name, right? We have the ability to be intentional, where you're just not usually intentional about our relationships, because we're introverts and we don't want to, but we can, and it's important. It's important for our own happiness. It's important for the happiness of our spouse or partner in our family. And he will help us in other ways. You know, there's, whether it's I don't know if it's correlation or causation, but if you have strong Good quality of social relationships in your life, you likely have good emotional self regulation. And then you also likely identify as being a happier person. So my, my message to my fellow introverts would simply be intentional about relationships. Because it's easy to go on autopilot, by ourselves in a book, if you're a musician, studying your music. If you're a writer, writing what you write, if you're a video gamer, like me, getting into video games, and living in the video game world, it's just all too easy to get immersed in another dimension, if you will, in your mind, and then neglect relationships. And it's important that we don't for our own happiness, and the happiness of our spouses and our family members. And then my, my message to extroverts would be, you know, just understand that we do have to have time alone and our thoughts. I know that I've asked you before, do you ever sit there and like, fantasize about? Like, I don't know, just a world? Like, do you ever make up a world in your mind or a story in your mind? or build a castle in your mind or whatever? And you're like, No, absolutely not. If you think about anything at night, it's about things that have to be done in that real world. It's a to do list a to do list. And I'm like, I'll save that to the morning. Yeah, I'll either do it the night before, if I'm being a real go getter, or I'll deal with that morning. And so, you know, at nighttime or wherever, when I want to relax, it's it's being in my own thoughts.

Kimberly Holmes: 21:47

Yeah, and I don't know if there's also a correlation between introverts being more likely being able to rest and relax better than extroverts. Or if that's just me, and you, because I wish I had the ability to turn my mind off like you do, and not worry about things or think about my to do list. The reason I don't like sleep, and why I don't want to lay in bed for a long period of time is because my mind is racing with things that I have to do. And it's not comforting to me. But I don't know that necessarily has to do with being an extrovert. But I do agree. One of the biggest things I have learned is that if I give you your space, and I give you your time to recharge, then you're going to bounce back quicker than if I begrudgingly do it. Or if I say negative things about it. Or if I'm trying to beg and whine and plead for you to spend time with me, then it's, it's not going to get you back, recharged any quicker, it's going to take longer, and it's going to hurt the quality of our relationship long term, if that's the way I react towards you. Now there's a flip side to it, though, as well, which is you're an introvert married to an extrovert. So how have you learned to give me my needs of being spontaneous, going out doing stuff, while also maintaining what you need as an introvert.

Rob Holmes: 23:22

essentially, play alone, which is difficult in high stress situations. So some context for those who are just listening in and don't know as much about our story. When we were first married, I was in the army. I was a Blackhawk pilot and we were stationed in the Republic of Korea. In the Republic of Korea, we were only allowed because of like military rules and things like that it was mostly US based rules. Not actually Korea imposing any of these rules on us. It was the US Army because they like rules. We can only have one car. That first later, we were allowed to have a second car. It took a lot of paperwork and a lot of waiting. But we finally got that second car, hardly used it. But anyway, we only had one car, I would work all day, I had to have that card, the nature of medivac as a job. I could not give that car up for long periods of time, not more than like 30 minutes at a time usually. And I was also really stressed out I was a platoon leader and platoon leaders were busy bodies and I had to have the car to be a busy body around the base. Various things and sometimes other bases I had to just sometimes on the fly just go to another base. But I didn't get to fly there to drive there despite being a pilot. And so Kimberly was stuck at home all day,

Kimberly Holmes: 24:41

All day.

Rob Holmes: 24:42

All day by herself. an extrovert didn't know anyone. We were a 14 or 15 hour time difference from back home depending on daylight savings in the United States. I didn't really do it there and calling a relative on the fly It's 2am over there. And I mean, so you can't just pick up the phone and call your mom or your dad or your sister or a friend from college, you are so isolated. And I understood you were but I was so stressed out, there wasn't much I could or wanted to do about it. And so I would come home from work to an extroverted wife, who had been home all day, and in the military work like a 12 hour day. And so she's been alone for, you know, eight hours sleep plus 12 hours, you know, you know, really going up there with with the amount of alone time. And I'm an introvert coming home from being around other people all day, the office that they had for the lieutenant's at the medevac company at the time, it was supposed to be about eight lieutenants, and office roughly the size of a normal American homes bedroom. So Matt, take a standard bedroom, maybe the master suite, minus the bathroom. And that is the size of an office that eight lieutenants shared in that place. And there's not cubicles, not like any cubicle walls, just put put desks around it. And you know, that's where we're sitting and talking and doing work and me being stressed out. And so yeah, I'm an introvert coming home from you know, 12 hours straight of just being around other people sensory overload for me, to my wife, who's an extrovert and who's been alone for going on 12 hours. That was rough. That was rough, and I was stressed. And you were bored out of your mind. That was rough. That was very rough. That was really probably the worst test ever. And that was the beginning of our marriage. Yeah. So from there, everything is like downhill in a good way. You know, smooth sailing after that every everything else seems to mostly pale in comparison.

Kimberly Holmes: 27:08

I don't know. I think it was that experience that led us to separating.

Rob Holmes: 27:15

In a way Yeah. It wasn't a separation, like, oh, we're fighting let's separate it was Kimberly was enrolling in a master's program. And we're deciding whether or not she should do it online. Or she should go do it in person, brick and mortar. And we both came to the conclusion, she should go do it in person. And that was even that was not good for a marriage.

Kimberly Holmes: 27:36

No, it wasn't. But I also think part of the reason both of us leaned towards that, and we talked about this later, like years later, was that we both wanted to be alone. We were like, Okay, if I go back to the States, then I can have a normal life. And you could get a reprieve here, like having a look. And we didn't say that then. Yeah, I don't think we've realized it or wanted to admit it. But then we ended up being apart for a year. Mm hmm. And it was always the coming back together. That was hard. It was being apart was easy. It was like coming back together every time we were separated for you being training or whatever. But especially after that year, because then we had to learn how to do all of this again. Yeah. And ever since you left the army, we've agreed to not separate when we don't have to. Because it is it's difficult on marriages, and it's especially difficult when you have two people who are different and you and I are very different. Yeah.

Rob Holmes: 28:48

Yeah It the weekends, we basically had to take the weekends and go on adventures. For it wasn't just your sake, as even though I'm

Kimberly Holmes: 29:02

actually in Korea. Yeah.

Rob Holmes: 29:04

Or even not just Korea, but even beyond if we could get an adventure in we tried to. And that was, I think, very valuable. And still, you know, we're never going to stop. If we're, if we're in wheelchairs, we'll figure it out.

Kimberly Holmes: 29:16

Okay, well, no break out of the nursing home. Hopefully, by

Rob Holmes: 29:19

the time we're in wheelchairs, it'll be very advanced, and we'll be able to have like robot legs on them. But yeah, we had to take the weekends go on adventures together, which I did enjoy as an intern. And this goes back to quality of social relationships as an introvert, a one on one adventure with my wife is just fine by me. I don't feel the social pressures, like I feel in an office with seven other lieutenants plus, everybody's platoon sergeant is there. And you know, who knows what Warrant Officers and other guys are in and out of that office. I called it the den of evil. I don't know if anybody else called it that and nobody tried. When I would call it that out loud, so kind of kept to myself, but that I call that office the den of evil, you know, a one on one with my wife and adventures in stark contrast to working 12 hours in the den of evil, if you will. And so that was that was able to recharge my batteries. So we were able to get what you wanted. And I was able to get what I want.

Kimberly Holmes: 30:22

I think for both of these situations, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, there's a common thread, which is you want to feel seen, you want to feel heard, and you want to feel valued, right, you want to feel loved. And so when you meet that other person where they are, me knowing you're an introvert, you knowing I'm an extrovert, we've both had to make sacrifices, I've had to learn that I, you know, if we were to married extroverts, if I were to extroverts married to each other, then our life would look very different. And I would probably be way more extroverted, I think I've become more introverted, because I'm married to you, because I've chosen to shift part of my behavior in order to make our relationship better, but that was a choice. Yeah.

Rob Holmes: 31:16

I've always been uncomfortable with that choice. Mine, even though I, like you not say pestering me to go do extroverted things all the time, because if I do feel pestered, or pressure to do lots of extroverted things that overwhelms me easily and quickly, I feel like I'm holding you back. And part of me doesn't really like that either. But since it is a choice on your part, I do feel a lot better about that. I'm looking at a an interesting article here that talks about another key difference in introverts and extroverts that I think adds light to the situation. And that has to do with reward systems in our minds. And I believe there's a case in point that is very apparent between you and I, the fact that I am for the first time ever showing up on this podcast, right. And you do it very regularly, you do YouTube videos, I have 10s of 10s of 1000s of views. You have the podcasts, you do webinars, typically, when I speak publicly, I discover I don't have much of a problem doing it. But I'm not eager to go do it. I don't it doesn't bother me much. I might be nervous for the first 20 seconds and then I'm good. But when it comes to the reward system, I do not feel a lot of reward in my brain. When I engage in what would normally be socially rewarding situations for an extrovert. So let's say I'm at a party, and I tell a joke, and everybody laughs hysterically. They start slapping me on the back and they're like, You're the man. I'll get a little bit of a dopamine spike. I will. If you know that the what the research is saying if I were an extrovert, I'd probably get like a dopamine high. Yeah, it would probably like shoot through the roof. As an introvert. It's probably like, haha, I made a funny cool, yeah, maybe I'll make one again in three years and another social engagement. But until that time, I'm good. extroverts feel a greater dopamine response to positive social engagements versus introverts. At least that's the theory behind it. I've heard another theory floating around that an extroverts mind, or their perception of social cues in people's faces is more acute than that of an introvert also, which could also explain why it kind of drains introverts to be in social situations. Because if I am at a party with many unknowns, Mm hmm. I remember back in college, I'd go to parties and I kind of hated them. I would go because it was college and that's what you do. You go to parties, but I hated them. I would always leave early. And reading, I have to put a lot of intentionality behind reading social cues, body language. I remember one time at a party there was a male and a female talking to one another. And they were just chit chatting, and I happen to be standing nearby and i. i interjected and they seemed kind of receptive to me talking to them. And I said something to the female that I did not personally perceive as flirtatious whatsoever. I don't know. Well, that no, the dude was a lot smaller than me. He was kind of like one of those really scrawny hipster type guys, so he wasn't. Well, he wasn't trying to physically threaten me he, but he did say, Hey, man, I'm trying to like he openly said, Hey, man, I'm basically trying to get in your pants. Like, right there in front, in front. Well, apparently she was receptive this home.

Kimberly Holmes: 34:53

Oh, it's right. You're at a party.

Rob Holmes: 34:54

That's like apparently she wasn't bothered by this at all. Like she had known that from beginning and I said, Oh my Bad. I moved on. But the fact that I didn't perceive that, right, and then I started talking to a girl. I was sitting on the couch and she like, came up and started talking to me, it took me about 10 minutes to figure out she wanted something from me that if I were an extrovert, I probably would have figured that out in the first two seconds. And by the time I figured it out, I was like, I don't I don't think so I'm not, I'm not digging this chick, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm out of here. And I made up an excuse to leave and I left. Yeah. And I felt kind of bad, because she probably felt rejected, like, you know, she just put 10 minutes of interaction into this guy that seemed very receptive. At first, she's fine now, anyway. But, you know, when I go in, I can I can perceive things, it takes me longer, and I have to process harder, like my mind has to, I'm going, I'm putting extra energy, mental energy into my surroundings. And when you compound that exponentially, by many different unknown people, my mind is racing, trying to perceive all the social cues, if any, or I have to focus on one person at a time, at best, that's why introverts prefer to be in smaller groups with people they know. If I'm in a group that has unknown people who have not previously met, I want it to be like six people. I know, one or two people I don't write feels more comfortable, much more comfortable. Yeah, because then I'm an insider. In my mind, socially, I'm I have a little bit of an upper hand, right? Yeah, I also kind of resent people who are the life of the party, right from the get go, let's say I'm in a group of 10 people. I know, nine of those people. Or I know eight other people, if I'm one of those 10 people, right? So leaves one unknown, and one unknown person doesn't know anything there. But then they come in, and they're the life of the party. They're super social, Pat, and everybody on the back telling all the jokes, that kind of person, right? We all know, they're just the life of the party where they go, a little resentful. It's like I've been here a while I know these people who's this, you know, this outsider coming in and stealing my friends? Not really, I might warm up to them with time and start to like, whoever they are, but. And maybe that's just insecurity in me, I don't know. But that may be introverts in general, being a little less secure in our social standing, because we're introverts a little bit harder.

Kimberly Holmes: 37:34

extroverts can be that way too. I think it maybe it's again, that drive that's different, because the extrovert drive could be I want to be the life of the party. exactly. Well, yeah. And I also wonder how much of this the personality plays into it, looking at the disc model, knowing that I'm a DI, so a dominant and then I'm just not blinking all at the is steady, cautious, influencing. So, yo know, I typically, I'm going to be more like that you're the ca tious, dominant, right? Yo're the CD, or the DC and so yo're going to be more pr tective. That's more your na ure. Yeah. And so I think I th nk introvert extrovert is a pa t of a larger puzzle, to help us understand ourselves better an understand others better.

Rob Holmes: 38:34

and it's important to understand that introvert and extrovert is a human created label that we've slapped on ourselves in the early 1920s. And we've continued to go with that label ever since prior to 1923, I believe was 1923. That label did not exist, right. And if you were an introvert, your life kind of sucked because you would be labeled as antisocial. Still are kinda Yeah, still and treated differently, kind of like kids who were left handed back in the day used to be forced to try and write with their right hand. And they likely became ambidextrous as a result. So it's important to understand these are just human created labels. But there is I believe, personally, there's merit to it, which kind of answers the question, is it real? I do believe it's real. I believe those labels are, are real good indicate just like Democrat and Republican, those are both human created labels, right. But you can see a lot of differences in people's opinions. And I think you can see a lot of differences, but they're very broad. There's a lot of crossover too. Yeah, extroverts are going to need some time by themselves to recharge battery, actually, you'll find extroverts sitting alone in a corner or reading a book. Yeah. You will find you will find introverts who are the life of the party. And you would not know it. You would think this person is so extroverted. They're an introvert who learned to adapt, right? I've had to learn to adapt a lot.

Kimberly Holmes: 40:05

Like my dad, my dad's an introvert, but because he's a speaker and a teacher when he's doing that, you would never know. Yeah. A lot of peop e are like that.

Rob Holmes: 40:18

Yeah, you will find a lot of crossover, which is why I like to say, I think most people are ambiverts, who simply fall on one side or the other? Are you more extroverted? Are you more introverted? And that's why I personally think that to say, I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert is not likely true for the majority of people. It's usually people are ambiverts, who who lean on one side of the

Kimberly Holmes: 40:43

other, or at least can adapt to situational needs.

Rob Holmes: 40:46

Yes. Yeah. At the end of the day, the very core principle stands, where do I go to recharge my batteries toward other people or to be alone? And I think a lot of that goes back, there's still so much science emerging and so much research emerging every year. Every year more and more research is emerging on everything, but this topic too. And, you know, what are some of the root causes of introvert versus extrovert? Are we born that way? Can we change? I believe we can change on some level? How much can we change? Do traumatic events impact that? There's some theory that, you know, if somebody is a sociopath, they're likely, at least appear very extroverted. And that's usually a result of trauma at a young age, you know, and so. So, yeah, are, you know, nature versus nurture, it seems both play a role. From what we're seeing, and there could be some genetic influence. And there's likely also some upbringing influence.

Kimberly Holmes: 41:47

The bottom line for all of it is, it's not a bucket to put your or a box to put yourself in, or your spouse in, but to be aware, on a daily basis, what is it they need, and what is it you need, and then communicating that. And then if your spouse communicates to you I need time alone, then you give them that time alone. If your spouse communicates to you I need time together, then you give them that time together. Now, if both of you need time alone and together at the same time, you're going to have to compromise.

Rob Holmes: 42:22

And these needs are amplified under stress.

Kimberly Holmes: 42:24

Yes, that's a good point.

Rob Holmes: 42:27

Yeah. And that can that can really cause a clash, to in our modern age, how does it work? Typically, both people work full time, and they'll come home. And if you have an introvert and an extrovert needs may very well clash. Well, it's about compromise. So

Kimberly Holmes: 42:47

yeah, you and I might both come home at the end of the day, and each need, you might want to be alone, and I might want to be together. In that moment, we can either fight about it just isn't gonna help anything, or one of us can decide to yield. I mean, that's the bottom line. And so I could decide to yield and say, I'm gonna give you your time. That's actually I believe, I believe the better one, because I know if you have your time alone, that our time together is going to be

Rob Holmes: 43:21

better. Yeah. If I'm cranky than our time together,

Kimberly Holmes: 43:25

right, but if you come home and you want time alone, but you don't need time alone, then you could yield, right? Like, you could be the one to say, I really want time alone, but you are clearly the one who's had the more distressing day, who needs more of my attention. I need to show you, I'm there for you right now. And so then you decide to yield. I don't think there's a perfect answer, I think it's figuring it out. But when you get in a rhythm in your marriage of like a ping pong table, kind of like you give and take, like it goes back and forth, then you trust that whatever your need is, will eventually be met. And if you know it's eventually going to be met, then you'll be fine with it being delayed a little bit. The fear is that our needs are never gonna be met.

Rob Holmes: 44:13

Yeah, and you know, it's like, I like to tell Kimberly, I said, I'd spend time with you. That means I'll spend time with you. You don't have to remind me every two weeks, okay? It's, it's gonna happen. I put it on the date for sometime in July, January, ha ha ha, ha, see life for the problem. She's laughing and another.

Kimberly Holmes: 44:33

And another part of this is being proactive. So if your two extroverts married to each other or two introverts married to each other, then you might have to think of how this applies in that situation. But you still need to have time together. Actually, I think that applies in both those situations. Because if you're too extroverts and you're always around other people, then you may not be investing as much as you need to in just the two of you and just your relationship because you always have an External presence. If you're two introverts, you may not be spending enough time the two of you together talking and what's good, I didn't think about that.

Rob Holmes: 45:08

And we're talking about introvert and extrovert relationship this whole time.

Kimberly Holmes: 45:12

Yeah, it could be to introverts and extroverts. And then if you're an extrovert and an introvert, like, probably more people are a mixture of the two, yeah, then because that's probably what attracted us to each other. Whether we knew it or not, but if that's it, then being proactive and saying, We're gonna do a date night, every week, or I'm gonna make sure that you have your night to, you know, every Tuesday night, for example, you can go like, well know that that's Rob's night to do what he wants to do, and Kimberly's night to go out with the girls or whatever, and have more of that extrovert time, but being proactive in it is helpful than being in the middle of a fight and trying to figure it out. Yeah.

Rob Holmes: 46:02

Yeah. Don't resolve the things in the middle of a fight, try and try and have healthy conflict, and then come back to it later. Why do you both not as emotional? Hmm. And then you can, maybe that's the logical introvert and me speaking, handle it logically. But, but when you're flooded with emotion, it's very difficult to come up with something that's fair for both parties. Yeah, that is that makes sense.

Kimberly Holmes: 46:30

It is. And if your relationship isn't in the space where you feel like you can have this conversation right now, and go to the workshop. There you go. But even more than that, so of course, I think everyone should go to the workshop, no matter what their marriage situation is, Rob and I went a month after we got married,

Rob Holmes: 46:49

yes, saved our marriage before we encountered issues because we inevitably encountered lots of issues not far falling back on that education was what saved it.

Kimberly Holmes: 47:01

So if you know what your spouse needs more of the introvert or extrovert, you can begin to change the way you react to your spouse, the space you give your spouse, or the time doing more with your spouse, depending on what it is, you can begin to change your reaction to it. Even if you don't feel like you're in a place to have an open conversation about this with your spouse yet,

Rob Holmes: 47:27

I hope that this has opened the door for some people who may not have thought much about it, or they haven't thought much about it in a long time to consider these things. There's so much research available and every year more is coming out. That sheds more insight. My parting recommendation for introverts or extroverts who want to understand introverts better is to look into the book quiet. I cannot recall Susan Cain, Susan Cain, that is the author, the book quiet by Susan Cain.

Kimberly Holmes: 47:59

My parting thoughts are that they're both of these sides have strengths and are needed in the world. Yes. So being on the introvert side of it, it can be seen as selfish. uncon, disconnected, you know, quiet, reserved all of those things. But it's typically people who are more wired that way to be the deep thinkers to be the ones that are, you know, like Carl Jung, I'm pretty sure he was an introvert because knowing about Carl Jung, he went to a monastery talk about monastery, the way he came up with most most of his work was locking himself away in a monastery for weeks at a time to do what is called Deep work. So if anyone's heard the phrase, deep work, read the book, deep work by Cal Newport, it all came from young, all this came from you. So it's people like that are researchers, right? Like they're typically going to be more introverted. And they bring value to the world, just as the people who are more extroverted are going to bring value in a different way, by bringing people together by being you know, the ones who are doing podcasts are the ones who are doing YouTube. And that's these are generalizations, but both of them have their place and they have strengths. So see what your spouse's strengths are. Not, don't focus on how this is a weakness, because it's not. It's how God made them. And it's a strength.

Rob Holmes: 49:34

Yeah. And even though you can change a little bit on the scale, you're not likely to change much, even with intentionality. So just also bear that in mind, it's, I wouldn't say it's written in stone, but it is it is not likely to change much, at least not quickly. It would likely take many years or decades.

Kimberly Holmes: 49:56

And it doesn't have to because there is value and purpose for how every person is wired.

Rob Holmes: 50:04

Exactly.

Kimberly Holmes: 50:05

Here is the key PI's takeaway from today's episode, I am boiling it down to one thing, in order for us to have healthy and strong relationships with the people in our lives, husbands, wives, kids, co workers, family members, crazy neighbors across the street, whoever it may be. The principles that we talked about in today's podcast apply to all types of relationships. But even more so for the ones that you want to last your lifetime. Like your marriage, your relationship with your kids, these matter even more. And the principle the main principle that we can really boil down this whole podcast episode into is this be attentive to what the other person needs. That's it. If we are attentive to what our spouses need, our kids, our boyfriend or girlfriend are our best friend or sister or whoever it is, if we are attentive to their needs, and they're willing to give them what they need in the moment, it's going to create a stronger, more satisfying relationship. Now, should that be done at the expense of you getting what you need back? No. But here is the other thing we all have to realize. At any given time in a relationship. Both people are going to need something Rob and I both needed to I needed to be connected to him, I wanted to talk to him, I wanted to spend time with him, I needed that he needed to have time alone to recharge. In all relationships, we are going to encounter dueling needs, opposing needs. And this is where compromise comes in. And the best way that I can explain compromise in this short ending of our episode is that the person who is more mature in the moment, or the person who is able to yield more in the moment, should do so without holding a grudge, should do so lovingly should do so with grace, in the times when Rob would come home and I knew he needed time alone. Many times I didn't handle that. Well, I begged I screamed, I whined, I pleaded I did all of the things that just pushed him further away. Did my needs in that moment not matter? Absolutely not. They did matter. His needs mattered more. So in that you could say well, how do you choose which one should give in? Honestly, there's gonna come a time where we all just have to choose, do I want to fight this battle now? Is it really worth it to me? Or can I step back, give my spouse what they need, knowing that they will come back and be better able and capable of being attentive to my needs. On the back end of that. Those are the kinds of ways that you have to learn to compromise and, and it's not always going to be a perfectly quid pro quo transaction. But love and marriage and relationships never perfectly are. That's why there's grace. Now, you might be saying, but what if I give and I never get what I need in return. That is when eventually there will come a time where you will need to address that and have a difficult conversation. But what you want to make sure that you've done leading up to that is that you've built up emotional equity with the other person, that you have a track record of being able to give them what they need, so that by the time you address them and ask for them to be more attentive to your needs, it is less likely that they will be able to say but you haven't been able to give me mine. Now all of this can be difficult. And when you're in it, it can be hard to see it from a perspective like this because your emotions are higher. So I always recommend that you take deep breaths, take a step back and wait at least 24 hours before getting frustrated, angry, or having a difficult conversation with your spouse or your kids or whoever it might be. That has hurt you. But the bottom line is this. Try to be more attentive to the other people's needs in your life. And it's not going to return void. Friends, I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. Remember to go and subscribe to this podcast and leave an honest review. I love to hear from you guys. So be sure to go and do that. And it will also help more people find the podcast as well. You can always find out more information by going to it starts with attraction.com for shownotes for updates, and to join the email list so that every Friday you can get an encouraging email that specifically tells you what you can do to work on your pies so that you can become the best that you can be Physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. Until next week, keep working on your pies and stay strong.