It Starts With Attraction
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It Starts With Attraction
How Can I Overcome Grief After A Divorce?
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Divorce can feel like the end of the world, shattering dreams and leaving you questioning your worth. But it doesn't have to be the final chapter. On It Starts with Attraction, Kimberly Beam Holmes and David Mathews, founder of Spark of Life, offer hope and healing for those navigating the devastating loss of divorce.
In this powerful episode, David reveals why divorce is so hard to process, highlighting the unresolved resentments, regrets, and shattered dreams that keep individuals stuck. He emphasizes the importance of viewing divorce as a form of grief and shares practical tools for recovery, including forgiveness, gratitude, and taking small steps forward. Discover how to shift your focus from loss to what you still have, and learn how to live forward with hope and purpose after divorce.
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Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
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I'm joined today by David Matthews. David is one of my dear friends, love him and his wife, debbie, dearly. But he also is the founder of an organization called Spark of Life, and at Spark of Life they work with people who have experienced lots of types of grief, especially the or I guess I should say they've worked with people who've experienced many different types of losses and, with that loss, encouraging people that grief is a healthy next step to do. And I so admire David and Debbie and the work that they do and the work that they continue to do to help people. Really wanted to have him on the show to specifically talk about divorce and what happens, what is happening in a person, in their mind, in their heart, once they've experienced a divorce, and how do they begin to make changes, to begin to live forward and not feel so stuck in what divorce can cause a person to feel towards themselves. So, david, long introduction, but it's only because I love you so much and have so many great things to say about you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for coming on today. Well, you're welcome. It's great to be on and talking about a subject dear to my heart, right, and I know, dear to your heart people who are hurting and trying to do whatever we can to help, to walk beside people that are devastated in spirit a lot, and, of course, divorce is one of those things and our grief recovery work. We have dealt with hundreds of people, hundreds who have gone through the divorce situation and they're just devastated for lots of reasons. Even if it's their choice to divorce Maybe they're the ones that wanted the divorce they're still devastated, many that we deal with. So I really appreciate the opportunity to come walk beside you guys and maybe help some people along the way. That's our goal.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Let me start with asking you this question, David why is a divorce so hard for people to process and so hard for people to move on from?
Speaker 2:You know, shattered dreams shatter us. Shattered dreams just shatter us. I don't know many people who walk down the aisle, or however they got married, that said, ok, someday we're going to be shattered and not love each other, or act like we don't love each other, or our marriage will end. Now our dreams are, so we're just excited about the future with this person Right, this person right, and we've dreamed about this. And I don't think there's any less or greater devastation for males or females in this, because we've dealt with both, of course. But I think shattered dreams are so hard to get through. And then it's regret, right, and there's two things of regret and resentment. And the regret is, if I'd have only done something different, maybe we wouldn't be here, maybe he or she would not have left, or maybe our marriage would not be in such bad shape. Uh, so you have deep regrets about if I'd have only done something different. So along with that comes what is wrong with me. I'm to blame, I have my value, my self-value goes to the toilet, if I can say that, and so this self-doubt can take over, which affects other relationships of life. So you have this snowball effect of loss of your marriage, with now all these other factors like children and struggles with children, struggles with your social life. It just affects all parts of your life. But really inwardly, about who the heck am I? I'm just the biggest screw up in the world and we all struggle with that anyway. Right, we struggle with I'm not good enough. You know, I come from a Christian background and that's just the number one thing I get. I got all the time was I'm not good enough. I'm just not good enough. It's kind of like the old song I know my sins and they're ever before me. Well, dave Matthews knows his sins. Dave Matthews knows I'm a screw up.
Speaker 2:So if I go through a marriage shakeup and then a marriage ending, it's very easy to pile on yourself and along with that it's very easy to pile on your ex-spouse, right? So you have these two dynamics and they can get real lopsided like it's all my spouse's fault or it's all my fault. Most of us know that it's probably both right, and I've dealt with a couple of I say a couple of marriages that went through divorce, that it probably was all one person's fault, okay, in a real toxic situation that somebody really needed to get away from that person. I think we've all dealt with people like that. But in most marriages we deal with, it's not all one person's fault, but sometimes it's one person that wants the divorce and the other person doesn't. So what I'm saying? It's real easy, I think, to pile on yourself and or to pile on your ex spouse to.
Speaker 2:You know, that dynamic creates tremendous problems in other relationships and the family structure and social structure and all that you know. I think that's one of the reasons of shattered dreams. It is like a death. It's a death of relationship. Uh, you know we don't compare losses when we deal with those who are grieving. All loss sucks and stinks and hurts.
Speaker 2:But that's why we think it's so important for those who've gone through a divorce to understand the relationship between divorce and grief that this is a loss. This is a major loss, even if you want it, even if you push for it. It's a major, huge loss because of this destruction, shattering of your dreams that you had for so many years and now it's gone and then you have to live with it, right, you have to live with the consequences and there's constant triggers, constant triggers. You never get far away from it, you know right.
Speaker 2:So we've just seen when we context the divorce in the grief context, it really helps because then I can approach it from a grief thing. A grief thing and fundamental number one there's nothing wrong with you. You're grieving, okay. Fundamental number one that propels me to get up, wash my face as it is, live forward with my pain, not ignoring the pain and not denying the pain, not denying my screw ups or his or her screw ups, dealing honestly with it, but having a foundation that allows me to get up and live forward, as opposed to existing forward. So that's why I think it's so tough. You know I could go on all day, so I mean I'm waiting for you.
Speaker 1:You're just waiting for me to butt in and say something. Well, but I just I so appreciate the way that you approach talking about grief and I remember several years ago now, when you and I really started talking about this together and doing more collaboration. It fundamentally changed the way that I viewed a lot of issues that I was having that had occurred in my marriage, you know, and just other people, friends and family. Right, because the way that you talk about grief is it. You have a definition. I'm going to butcher it if I try to say it, but it is a change in an expected behavior or an expected routine of life. Say it the way that you say it.
Speaker 2:Well, we get this from different sources. Obviously I don't want to steal people's, but the definition that grief is conflicting feelings caused by an end of or a change in a familiar way of living. So I've often said this If one of my kids die and they're all grown and gone out of the home, it's a disaster, it's terrible, it's awful. They're all grown and gone out of the home. It's a disaster, it's terrible, it's awful. But if my wife dies or my wife leaves me, my daily routine is all changed. Everything's changed on a daily basis. Obviously, I hope to die and Debbie hopes to die before our kids. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2:But I think when you have a change in a familiar way of living, even if it's your choice, it's a shock to the system and then and so so, in divorce for example and we all know this it's a long process. It's very, it's very weird or unusual for it to be OK, you're in a happy marriage. The next day, divorce day, divorce, okay, bam. No, it's a. It's a process of conflict and and hurt and pain, and then maybe trying reconciliation. All that stuff goes with. It could last for years, right, but you're still together. But when the divorce happens and then, and obviously it's different in different cases, but the change in a familiar pattern of behavior is over. I had, I had her or him. Now they're not here. So it's so similar to death because it is death. It's death of a relationship, it's death of a familiar pattern of behavior, and so and death of a dream.
Speaker 2:Like you said earlier, death of that expectation, yeah that expectation, yeah that expectation. And it shatters you and then you feel like what's wrong with me and then you throw it back. I talked to a guy yesterday that came to Marriage Helper Workshop and his divorce is not now final. He did everything right. He did everything right. That doesn't mean he's blameless, but he just called and we've become good friends and and you know I was his coach for a long time and anyway he it's over. The marriage is over. She refuses to buy all this. Six years, six years of going through and they'd been separated emotionally and sometimes physically for six years. And they've been separated emotionally and sometimes physically for six years. But now the divorce is final just this past week and he called just and it's such a great illustration of what we're just saying.
Speaker 2:Even though it's been a long process, the finality of it kind of the hope is gone for the marriage. You know the hope is out. When he held on to hope and I think that would relate to a lot of our listeners you know you hold on to hope. The divorce is fine and we all know there could be miracles even in that situation. But really holding on to that hope can be very toxic for you and keep you from moving on, even though there's always that little bit of element of hope. And we know cases, right, I know cases five years, divorce, remarriage and we want to give people that hope. But on the other hand, on the other hand, you have got to live forward, which really increases your odds right Of having a better outcome. But I've got to admit hey, it's over and that's a tough one, right, that's the tough one.
Speaker 1:This is such a tough one, David. I have so many questions. I want to ask you about this too. Right, Because I am in existence, literally my life is in existence because of a marriage that was put together after three years of divorce, right?
Speaker 1:So clearly clearly, I believe there's always hope. But then there's this tension on the other side of it, of um, you know, marriage helper. Sometimes people will say to us but like when is it false hope? When do I need to move on after the divorce is final? Cause they they may kind of hang on of a story like my mom and dad's and just keep waiting for that even after divorce. And it's really hard to live in that balance. It's really hard to live in that tension. So what would you tell people in that? So what is that balance? How do you live forward and maintain hope? Or when should you give up hope? Oh, that's a fine line. I'm interested to see what you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say yes and no. Yeah, yes, you should give up hope. No, you should not. Okay, and by that I mean you can fight both sides. Yeah, you can. And it's kind of like can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it? Philosophic questions about God. Make a rock so big that he cannot lift it? Philosophic questions about God. I always say yes, of course he can, and no, of course he cannot.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's no, he would not yeah.
Speaker 2:And no, he would not. But I think, I think you can reframe it into a both and Okay. And like I'm working with, let's say, I'm working with a couple I used to coach, you know, as you know, for Marriage Helper and still do the workshops. But this happened often and of course I would say this because I got it, I think, from one of the people that work at Marriage Helper. When I work on my pies and I'm in a marriage, let's say, and the spouse does not want to be married and the spouse does not want to be married, I always told my people, my people, my clients, when you get to the point where you're working on your pies, not to get them back, but because that's what you have to do in a healthy way for you to live forward. And you get to the point where if they called you and said would you please take me back, and you would say I don't know, my life is going well. When you get to that point, that's a good thing, that's a healthy recovery, because you cannot live your life based upon what the other person may or may not do. That's giving up control to the other person. This isn't a punishment thing for me to say, no, I won't take them back, I'm going to get even with you. No, it's not that, it's that. Let me think through this.
Speaker 2:So, if it's a divorce situation, I would use and we have used the exact same teaching that we do in Marriage Helper and the exact same teaching we do at Spark of Life. It's exactly the same. All you can do is all you can do, and all you can do is enough. And that statement, in fact, this guy I talked to yesterday, he said that one statement he keeps going back to and it's helped him through his divorce and through this whole messy situation. What else can he do but work on himself? What else can he do but get up and wash his face? Yeah, so, anyway, that's how I would answer it.
Speaker 2:So is there a hope? Yeah, but there's a hope I'll win the lotto. Okay, but I'm not saying it's that, it's for David. Yeah, that's. Maybe I shouldn't use that analogy or that, but really I can't focus on that. I need to focus. There is hope for Dave Matthews to live forward, to have a productive life, a really good life for me, to work through the pain and actually not let my past define me, but let it propel me, let it propel me, let it propel me. That's the focus, not on is there a one in a hundred chance? I have people even ask me what do you think the odds are of my spouse, even those who are divorced? What's the odds? There's no way I can say that, but I'll tell you what the odds are good, that you can live forward, yeah, that you can make healthy decisions, that you can complete those incompletes of regrets and resentments. That's what you can do and let's focus on that right.
Speaker 1:And you know, that's what my mom did.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what she did.
Speaker 1:Mid-1980s. So this was all pre-marriage helper, but this was. She got a job. She had been a stay-at-home mom her whole life, but when they got divorced, she got a job. She had been a stay at home mom her whole life, but when they got divorced she got a job. She worked on herself. She took her life in her own hands. They still had a great co-parenting relationship, from everything they've both said to me, especially my mom. But she started dating again, right, Like she, and thankfully she didn't. She was moving on. Thankfully, by the time my dad came back around, she had not gotten remarried yet, Like that. That just happened to be the hand of God in the situation. Um, because she was doing everything that you were saying. She was figuring out how to move on. She forgave him. She was strong in herself and when he asked, will you take me back? She said you have to give me a couple of weeks to think about this.
Speaker 2:Perfect, yeah, and I always go back to your mom's illustration and dad's too on that because she had she given up hope on the marriage in a way she had. That wasn't her focus anymore. It was for the first year, right, for the first year or two. But then she said I can't live like this first year or two. But then she said I can't live like this. And had she quote, and had she held onto that hope and I'm putting my fingers together if you can't see this on the podcast but if she holds onto that hope to the extent that all her life is focused on getting Joe back, he probably wouldn't have even come back.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's it. That is the nail on's it. That is the nail on the head. That's the nail on the head. You're not putting all your hope in this one person or in this one relationship. You're putting your hope in something bigger and greater that you work towards and if this happens to come back around, awesome praise right, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:If you both want it right, yeah.
Speaker 1:If you both want it, right yeah.
Speaker 2:If you both want it.
Speaker 1:That's it. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like focus illusion, Right, it's like focus illusion One thing, one person can. But anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 1:You had a question. You mentioned something just a minute ago about something about resentment or what was it you were just talking about?
Speaker 2:Well, the incompletes of resentment and regret.
Speaker 1:What's that?
Speaker 2:People stay stuck through a grief situation, a loss, and remember we're talking primarily about divorce because of unresolved conflict, something in the past, and that's why everything's in context. That's why it's so important. It's so important to put divorce in the context of grief. And then, what keeps people stuck? The loss does not keep people stuck. Most people think it's the loss that keeps them stuck. So if my marriage is lost, my spouse has divorced me or I've divorced them, it's final. The divorce is there. What keeps you stuck is not the loss. If it is the loss of your marriage that keeps you stuck, you're in a bad shape. I mean you're in bad shape because you can't change that right now. You can't change it. So what does keep us stuck? I have to identify what it does, and it's unresolved resentments or regrets. Regrets are what I did that hurt the relationship. Resentments are what they did that hurt the relationship, and it fits perfectly with divorce. So in divorce, even if you're still married and you are separated I mean this applies to any situation but in divorce, if I hold on to my resentments toward my spouse for all that they did to me, then what happens is that becomes my life and I'm consumed with bitterness and let's do a survey of people who've been through that and now see it and how it hurt their relationship with their kids, with their grandkids, with their friends if they're consumed with bitterness.
Speaker 2:So I did a divorce recovery group for three years in Flint, michigan. Three years every Wednesday night People flocked to that. We put a sign out front. We had a busy big old church and it was a sign out front. Divorce recovery group Wednesdays at seven o'clock or six o'clock and we had 200 people come over the period of three years, at least maybe 300. Okay, they would and most people would come for seven, eight, nine weeks, get healthy and move on. But we had six people that didn't. Six people stuck around for three years. Wow yeah, and I was ignorant. I just got my master's in counseling and we had moved to Michigan and I wanted to do it. You know I had all these groups going on and it was crazy. I learned never do an unending support group, you know, no ending.
Speaker 1:Number one never do it.
Speaker 2:It's unhealthy. It's unhealthy. Yeah, have a specific start date, of course, and a specific end date, and then get those people out of there. And then get those people out of there. They need to live forward.
Speaker 2:Live forward and some might need some more help and some might need therapy, right Things like that. But we had these six people that stayed and I told Debbie I said they're unhealthy For one thing. It's all about how bad their spouses are. Every week they were consumed with resentment and I'm not saying the spouses didn't hurt them, the spouses did hurt them. They have every right to express that. But not for three years. It's not healthy. It's not healthy for a year. I mean, you know I have no timeframe on that but it's not healthy to stay stuck in resentment.
Speaker 2:So we teach people how to let go of that resentment in a healthy way, which includes forgiveness, right, and forgiveness is a huge deal, so it includes that. But if I have resentment and I've heard people say, oh, I've forgiven her or him, right Ex-spouse, and then all their talk is about them, how bad they are, we've got to shift out of that. We got to give permission for people to express that those resentments in a healthy way, but then give them tools to progress out of that and to tie up the loose ends and to let go of it. So we actually have exercises and specific things that people and we know this in Marriage Helper. People need specific things that they can grab, hold on, and that's why the concept of pies is so great, isn't it? I mean, just look at Isn't it though?
Speaker 1:Isn't it?
Speaker 2:Who came up with that? Was that Dr Beam, or was that you, kimberly?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It was for sure, Dr Beam. I'm just the one that said. You know what? This is fantastic.
Speaker 2:We should do more of it. Yeah, and I always you know what this is fantastic, we should do more. Yeah, and I always joke around in the workshops. Well, here's another pie thing, you know, like attachment style pies, but, and I say this is chocolate pie. And there's others, lemon cream, but you know lemon coconut cream, but, but pies is is the same concept.
Speaker 2:So we, we give people specific, tangible things they do to let go of the resentments, to complete them. So, for example, if my mother got drunk every night from sixth grade through 12th grade, did that affect my marriage? Well, yeah, yeah, it did, cause I had unresolved conflict with my mother it's in unfinished business and I had resentments toward her and I loved her, right, and I had conflicting feelings, but I I never expressed it, I never dealt with it. I had to let go of it so it could free me in present relationships, right, and even though she's been dead for years, I had to let go of that. I had the same thing with regrets, regrets, what I did that hurt the relationship. So you just look at the divorce situation. That's why I say unbalanced. You know everything. His or her fault, your ex's fault is unhealthy. Everything my fault is unhealthy.
Speaker 2:I need to forgive the resentments, I need to tie up the loose ends. I need to do all I can do. And then I need to deal with my regrets that I have Tie up those loose ends. When I do all I can do and there's nothing more I can do about a situation, I'm free. I'm free so what I do with my mom. I just went back and said I wrote her a letter and said I forgive you for getting drunk every night and I told her how I felt when I was. She was drunk every night when I was growing up and I had to forgive her. I had to. So the tangible thing I did was write a letter to her. Some go to the grave if they're dead. If they're alive, I can still write a letter and not even send it to him, things like that. There are tangible things. People can do that when they do it, what more can you do? That's what we mean by tying up the loose ends. When I've done all I can do, I'm free Now.
Speaker 2:Do I still have pain when I see my ex? Do I still have pain if they're with somebody else and they get married to somebody else? Of course I do. That's called grief. That's natural and normal. I'll have triggers right. I think I heard you say some 25 percent of men, the divorce statistic that you talked about. Do you remember that you were doing your research? 25 percent of men who are divorced.
Speaker 2:What fathers?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 25. After a divorce happens, 25 percent of fathers after one year will no longer be present in their children's lives 25% of fathers after one year will no longer be present in their children's lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some of my clients have been through that, you know, through Marriage Helper, my husband, I remember one. My husband used to go to the every kid's ballgame and he started having an affair. And then, you know, they went through marriage, all that stuff and then they ended up divorcing. She's still a client, you know, she was a client. He doesn't even come to the ball games anymore, david. So that's a year later, two years later. So those are constant triggers. Yeah, that's why, you know, divorce is so devastating for a lot of those reasons. Right, it just keeps. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Right, it just negative gift or the gift that keeps on taking yeah.
Speaker 2:And didn't?
Speaker 1:I hear you say before that divorce can be one of the hardest to process because it was someone's choice. So, unlike a death loss where, like yeah, typically the person did not choose to die Right, right Then, but in this one, like someone made a choice, yeah, they made a choice to reject you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh, that's not just a, you know you're not good enough. Is the message people hear, right, yeah, and we've heard it, you've heard it, I've heard it. Uh, and the devastation on the other end of the line, or the zoom call, you know, with divorce, and then you have the finances, see, can be triggers. I don't have enough money, you know you. Just, it just keeps on going. That's what makes this divorce thing as tough, a major loss as they're out there. You know we don't compare losses, but we don't need to minimize the pain of divorce and we don't need to maximize it. And there's the balance right, we accept it. But we can yell against it, that's normal. We can express our feelings and that's what we want to do in the divorce recovery workshops and all that stuff is to help people do that Permission to grieve, permission to recover.
Speaker 2:You know the two foundational points that really can propel all of us to live forward with unimaginable positive life right After a devastating thing. That just rocks me to the very core of my being, and that's what divorce does. It just sucks all the goodness out of people for a while, self-worth and all that, and I know there's going to be listeners that can really relate to that, really relate. And we're with you. We want you to know we're with you. We want to walk with you if you want us to walk with you, and we want to help you to live forward through your pain. We can't take away your pain but we can certainly help people live forward with those strategies. The philosophy of Marriage Helper is exactly the same philosophy in the grief. It's just exact.
Speaker 1:David, I love the stories that I've been able to hear from you where you have had a person come through your work, from your retreats that you do, and they have experienced divorce and the transformation that's been able to happen for these people. Can you share a story with us about someone that has experienced divorce and the change that's happened in them because of what Spark of Life was able to do for them?
Speaker 2:She was married for about 25 years and really believed in marriage. She highly valued marriage. Her beliefs and values was marriage, was a covenant with God, you know. And she went through hell for 23 years, not physical abuse, but enormous emotional abuse. She comes to a a spark retreat, spark of life, grief retreat. And we serve. If it's in person, we serve the people. Okay, we serve them. We carry their bags in.
Speaker 2:When I carried her bag in, she said no, I've got to do it. Uh, no man has ever done anything nice for me. Okay, so then we, at the dinner table one of our helpers that was there, another couple helped us do that retreat. We're actually putting the plate down before them. If it's not a buffet type thing, if it is, we pick up the plates and take it to the kitchen. We say you can't pick up your own plate, the plates, and take it to the kitchen. We say you can't pick up your own plate. When Dennis went to pick up her plate after the first meal on that particular retreat was Thursday night, she said, no, I can't let you do it. And I was there and I said Dana, we can let you, can let us do it, because it's a rule you must let us do it.
Speaker 2:She started, she started crying and in the group that night, when talking about her divorce, she said Her husband had never one time done anything kind to her. Now, this is an extreme case, right, but she was so beaten down and she was such a beautiful person inside out, such a sweet spirit, it was very hard for her to get over. I am a worthless pile of you. Know what? She needed to divorce this guy? Ok, I mean, she needed to, but she didn't. And then he divorced her to, but she didn't, and then he divorced her. But even though she had every right to get the divorce, even from a strict religious situation in her, from her beliefs and values, she still felt worthless. It was still. If I had only been a better person and she was a good person and is a good person by Sunday at the retreat, she was totally different.
Speaker 2:She had worth because what she was experiencing was deep grief all the way through her marriage. See, it was a continuous loss of being disrespected. Yeah, people, we've seen people change, but when both people change, right, you know, we've seen, but this case he didn't change. He didn't, he did not and she was not perfect, but she felt so devalued for 20 something years that she couldn't even let a man take a plate back to the kitchen. But she finally did and when she did and she told the group about it and started crying. It was such a release and even by by Friday, as we got into details of specific things to do.
Speaker 2:And saturday, you know, she had to complete resentments toward him. She had to, she had to, she had to go through the process of doing that and she did. And then she went through the process of any regrets she had. She had to be honest with how she had failed. And then by sunday she is just a different person, wants to work with spark right. Wants to help others, just like people at Marriage Helper want to. You know they want to help others when they get that help.
Speaker 2:This is hope for people to have something they can hold on to and use for the rest of their lives. It's not going to be a, it's just not a three-day deal and it's over, right, it's like the marriage workshop. It's not just three days and it's over. It's three days for a beginning, a new beginning to live forward with hope for the future. And my life is not over and there are good days ahead, and sometimes I make this statement all the time Feeling helpless and hopeless does not mean you're helpless and hopeless, it means you feel it. There's a difference between emotions and thoughts. You know, I've been asked to give you know, give testimonies of people kind of like you just asked, and there's so many. Yeah, I mean it's unending. And the deal is community is the key there.
Speaker 2:Right, I read a book and it's one thing. I read a book that says I'm not worthless. Ok, I'm not worthless, but I feel worthless. And I'm not against books. I've written a couple and I'm writing. I've got about three more. I'm writing, but I mean, as books are good, but when you combine those principles that have been proven to work with real people who have been there and then with a community that's not going to support the fact that you're worthless, they're not going to support that. They're going to support that you are worthy. And how do you do that?
Speaker 2:When somebody says I screwed up my marriage, blah, blah, blah, even if you're one of the causes, which most people, you know both. But okay, from affairs to whatever you've done, and the other person listens and doesn't throw rocks at you. Then they verify that you're not crazy, you're a flawed human being. Right, but they've accepted not the bad behavior. If you had bad behavior and and when you say I've had people say I hate my ex spouse, I hate them.
Speaker 2:So when they say that, what do we say? Do we say, oh, you shouldn't hate them? No, we say I'm so sorry, you're hurting so deeply. That validates somebody's feeling. They don't want to hate anybody, but they feel it the same way with God. And you know we can go there forever. But those feelings that I have does not mean I'm a terrible person. I'm a normal human being who, when my whole self-worth has been challenged by you, know this marriage thing that failed the divorce I need somebody to say, hey, you're still a person of worth, I'm sorry for your pain. Let's walk together in this. I'm not going to condemn you for having those feelings and that's so freeing.
Speaker 2:And you can only get that in community. Right, you can't get it just reading a book. You've got to have a group or a person or somebody that's going to listen. As we say, with the heart, with two ears, no mouth, no nose, just I mean. I mean you can have a nose and two ears but no mouth. Yeah right, you can have a mouth. I mean no mouth. So, in other words, just listen and validate, listen and validate. I've got, I've got Kimberly all shook up here laughing about my lack of communicative skills. As I say, I make my living through words and that's why we're in debt. Okay, that's a joke, but anyway, validation is so important. And somebody not to you know, not to tell you what to do, but somebody to walk with you and encourage you.
Speaker 1:Okay, david. So as we wrap up this podcast, we focus a lot on the pies, which you've already mentioned a lot. So what is maybe one or a couple of things that you would encourage people that are experiencing divorce or living on the other side of it to do in their pies, as they're experiencing this?
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll give you an old, tried but true that a lot of people use. But I have to change in little steps, little steps, little small. I cannot climb to the mountaintop today and I'm surrounded by Alaskan mountains and the Kenai River as we speak. I can't climb to the top of the mountain today, but I can take a step, and what we found most hopeful is especially in divorce, when my whole psyche, if I can say that has been shattered. Right, I've got to force myself intentionally to focus on what I have, not on what I've lost. Okay, I've got to switch the focus from what I've lost to what I have. It's the old thing of counting your blessings, it's the whole thing of that.
Speaker 2:We do not mean, do not deal with your pain. Don't act as if it's wrong to have pain. Do not mean, do not deal with your pain. Don't act as if it's wrong to have pain Now, in your pain, force yourself and take. I say take two minutes a day. I did it yesterday, I need to do it today, two minutes at the most. One thing you're thankful for today that you have and one positive experience from the last 24 hours. And then one email in our world, one email to a friend to encourage them. But if you take 30 minutes to do that, you are going to stop doing it. So that's why we say a minute to two minutes max. We actually have this as part of our.
Speaker 2:That's what I've been working on the divorce recovery aspect of this, the tangible thing but that's at the end of the but. This is so important to start focusing on what I have, not just what I've lost. It does not mean don't think about what you've lost because you're in grief, it's okay. Focus on a little thing. What do I still have that I'm thankful for? And you know, like this woman that I told you about earlier at the grief thing, she focused on what she had and that was her good friends that were there for her and she said I'm thankful for my friends. And she wrote it. And we have a gratitude journal. You write it down right, it takes five seconds. Positive experience lasts 24 hours.
Speaker 2:Whatever there's got to be one thing in your life that's positive. Maybe you have a child that you love, right. Maybe they said they love you. Maybe you have a friend that called on you. And then take one minute and encourage somebody else. We got to start getting life words into people. That's what happens at workshops Life words into people. And what it does is when I experience loss.
Speaker 2:I've got a circle here and I'll make this quick. The loss, in this case divorce, is the loss. So you have divorce in this circle and all arrows are pointed toward that divorce OK. And because it's a grief, it's terrible, all right. So you have four arrows pointed. So how do you get out of that? That's OK to have four arrows pointed into the divorce, because it consumes your life for a while, but you can't stay there. So you know you can't stay with all focus being on what you've lost the person you lost, the marriage you lost. Try one thing. One thing arrows out.
Speaker 2:I'm grateful for my child, or my children the last 24 hours. A good friend called and we went out for coffee and the key is doing something for somebody else, but you've got to keep. Don't bake a pie and take it to people every day. You're not going to do that. If you want to bake a pie, take it to me, that's great, but don't. But one thing, one thing. So so I, I emailed, I emailed a buddy, my, my buddy Lyle, and I just, I just want to tell you I love you man. Thanks for being my friend. He came back and he's just crying. It took me 22 seconds to do that email. All that does is help me balance my perspective right. It's not all about what I've lost. I have to deal with that, not negating that. But that's my little tidbit for the day for people.
Speaker 1:That's so good. So what I heard was you take small steps, the smallest, the smallest minuscule step that you can that still moves you forward, and some ways that you can do that is focus on one good thing that's happened in the past 24 hours, a positive experience, three things that you're thankful for that are still in your life.
Speaker 2:Well, I said one thing, but you can do three if you want.
Speaker 1:Or you could do half of one, because that's the small step.
Speaker 2:Half of one, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And or sending an email or a text message to a friend, just telling them that you appreciate them.
Speaker 2:That simple. Just think if you did that every day. Research has shown the power of what we just said. There is so many studies on it and I just like the concept. Life cannot be focused on what we've lost all the time. I've got to start also appreciating what I have not lost, what I still have. That balances us, yeah, okay episode.
Speaker 1:Episode 91 of it starts with attraction for listeners. We talked about how to rewire your brain using gratitude. So, I talk in there about the science and research of gratitude and how that's good, we might've read the same stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of a lot of science out there.
Speaker 1:Great minds think alike, David.
Speaker 2:They do sometimes.
Speaker 1:David, thank you so so much for being on. You're welcome. I appreciate everything you do.
Speaker 2:You too. You too Bless. Blessings from Debbie and me to you guys.
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