It Starts With Attraction
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It Starts With Attraction
The 5 Step Method To Improving Your Communication
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Discover the 5 step method we use to improve communication. Not only does this help with communication between us as spouses, but it can also be used in conversations with friends, family, coworkers, and everyone in between!
Let’s dive in to this week’s episode!
Links to SMART Communication Episode:
Episode 1
Episode 2
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
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Oscar Wilde once said I think what ruins relationships and causes most fights is insecurity. So I'd like to talk about that today.
Speaker 2:Sounds like a really good episode topic.
Speaker 1:Secure communications, but not like encrypting your communications or using signal. What's that? What's that? Becoming emotionally secure, and from that position of emotional security we then communicate with other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is such a big issue that I see even at Marriage Helper I mean so many marriage issues we have stem from insecurities that we then end up feeling really upset or hurt based on how someone else communicates with us. We internalize that we then fight back with them instead of having the self-awareness to think like why, why did that affect me so much? Insecurity is.
Speaker 1:I mean how insecurity affects us, then shows, then affects how we treat other people and the behaviors we end up having and at marriage helper, you guys even develop smart contact to help people who are particularly insecure, as they're communicating, often with a spouse who wants out of the marriage yeah, it's a way to give a framework of like here's how to calm down in your communication, and so we actually have two versions of it.
Speaker 2:There's the one for the marriage in crisis, but then I also took that version and kind of created a smart communication. So there's some changes to some of the acronym that aren't as crisis focused and are more just general life framework, and it's just a framework of here's how to communicate in a way that shows that you are strong and calm but can also be gentle in your communication. And it's huge. I mean, the way that we communicate or the way that we don't communicate really is the intimacy. It really makes the biggest difference in intimacy in a marriage is is communication and the ability and the communication isn't just verbal, it's also nonverbal.
Speaker 1:Can we delve into smart contact?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been a minute since I've done the non-crisis one, so I don't know that. I remember all of that acronym off the top of my head. But there's a full podcast episode where I break it down, for on it starts with attraction from a few years ago and we can link to that in the show notes.
Speaker 1:We could also just have our producer Jason just edit that whole episode in right here right here. So, starting at the point I'm, talking now, and that'll make the episode like two hours long.
Speaker 2:But for both of them, as I already said, the premise is it's a framework that you can keep in your mind when you are feeling frustrated or when you're feeling like I just need to reach out. I do this. This is me texting Like I just need to reach out, I need this person to respond to me. It's a way to get you to calm down. So the first the S is stop the pushes, stop doing the things that are pushing the other person away. And that's true in every, literally in every communication that you could get into. Like you and I have a good marriage and there's still times where we can get mad at each other and we can get frustrated, and we can get annoyed and upset and uh and act, you know, negatively towards the other. We were so an example, like last week when you and I were in Phoenix and, um, the, we had like the car play hooked up to my Apple, to my iPhone, and I did something on my phone and the maps went away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're in the middle of like I need, in the middle of you on like I-10 with a ton of traffic, and so you were like, get the map back on. And so I got the map back on. But then I was like super quiet after that and at some point you said, at some point you were like what's wrong? And I said, well, you could have just asked nicely to put to put the mat back on. And you said that's not what you said. You said I will do that in the future. And when that happened in the like the, the days following that, you were like, hey, can you get the mat back on? But all that's to say is like you were frustrated in that moment. You needed to communicate something with me.
Speaker 2:What you did, kind of in and of itself, was a push behavior. But I could have and I'm not saying I responded in the perfect way by just like being quiet, cause I also could have spoken up and said like you know, hey, I'll. You know, yes, let me get that back up. But in the future I could have been proactive in my ask. But instead I kind of stonewalled in a little bit of a way, which is a push behavior. But I also could have responded by saying how dare you speak to me that way. Right, that's a push behavior, so it's identifying not the other person's push behavior, but it's identifying yours. What are the things that I need to stop doing in this moment, in this heated conversation, in order for me to gain calmness mentally?
Speaker 1:In push behaviors. It's my understanding that those are more than likely their own podcast episode already.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, probably. So there's a lot. It's anything I mean. If we want to just summarize it, it is anything you do that pushes the other person away, whether you intend for that to happen or not. So it's not as much about my intention about whether or not what I'm doing is pushing you away. It's about whether you perceive it as a push. So my the onus is on me to say I respect what you see as a push and I will therefore honor that. Okay, so that's stopping pushing the push behavior.
Speaker 2:The M stands for manage business items.
Speaker 2:Now, in smart communication, when we're talking about just like general framework for good communication, it's manage expectations, and both of them hold the same underlying concept, which is a lot of times we enter into conversation expecting it to go a certain way or expecting, you know, I might send you a really mushy text message and I expect you to just ooze back to me all of the things that you love about me as well.
Speaker 2:But if your response is just okay, yeah, then it's going to make me angry or it's going to hurt me, right, which could then affect the next thing I say to you if I'm not aware of that. So instead, it's a manager expectations Don't do something or say, like if I'm going to send you a really kind, mushy, gushy text message that's how much I love you and how much I appreciate you Well, my expectation should be that I'm not expecting to get anything back. I'm doing it truly because I it's not because I'm trying to seek something from you, it's because I want to give something to you, and so I'm wanting to give you this really kind word. Then, even if you say okay, well, I've managed that expectation, so now I'm not going to get upset, right, yeah, so that's the M.
Speaker 1:So in crisis it's managed business items.
Speaker 2:And that part is in and it's still in. It still goes right in line with managed expectations. But we called it managed business items because we were saying if you can't talk without fighting, then don't talk about the things you're fighting about right now. Find the things that you that are kind of the new, the Switzerland, the neutral ground, and use that as your baseline for rebuilding positive communication. So, like you and I, sometimes when we get in disagreements we end up changing the subject to something like that both of us just generally enjoy talking about.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's travel, Like maybe we're fighting over here in this part of our lives because we can't agree on whatever, but we can always agree on loving to travel, or what movie to see, or what food we might want to go eat, right, so talk about those things. When marriages are in crisis, it may even go a step further down, which is like talk about how the kids are doing at school, talk about the soccer game or you know, just like share things that are just not emotional and use that as your opportunity to reset a positive communication flow between the two of you so that you can end up because here's the goal you want to, just if you can't talk without fighting, then you need to find things you can talk about without fighting and only talk about those things so that you won't fight, and then trust will start being rebuilt, that I can have a conversation with this person and it's not going to turn crazy, and then you build from there. That's the whole mindset behind it.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of the episode of big bang theory where Leonard tells Penny he loves her and she wasn't ready for that yet and because she didn't reciprocate by saying it, he kept whether subtly and he would just like get back at it and eventually she dumped him, yeah, cause she couldn't take it anymore. He was being pushy, yeah.
Speaker 2:He had these push behaviors where he would like bring it up. He didn't manage his expectations, because he's clearly said it, expecting her to say it back. Well, she didn't. And then that affected the whole cycle to continue happening and instead of just moving on, he he kept on right. So that's a great example of it. And going back to what we started out and talking about insecurity, I mean it's not just fighting or disagreements that can lead to this. If there's one spouse who's just so clingy and needy, or one person like maybe it's a dating relationship, if someone's just so clingy and needy, that's a push behavior. And then so like, if that were me and I'm just like needing you to pay attention to me, well, I will, maybe I'll text you, maybe I'll call you. If you don't answer, maybe I'll send you. What are you doing? You know why aren't you answering me and that anxious energy is just going to ooze off of me and my expectation is going to be that you're going to soothe me.
Speaker 2:So I haven't managed my expectation and if I do sue you.
Speaker 1:That could set us up for a codependent relationship.
Speaker 2:So that ends up like feeding this cycle and so, like the push behavior. It's a little ironic in this situation because my push behavior, which does push you away, but I'm trying to pull you towards me, but I'm counter, like it's working against itself. So then I want you to do that and then, when you don't, it further facilitates me trying to pull you towards me and try, in a bad way, trying to be like what else can I do to try and get his attention? And so I just keep pulling out all the stops. It's like kids and this is where we learn it, where the it's like separation, anxiety and young children.
Speaker 2:Well, when they're scared that their main caregiver, when they're scared that their main caregiver might leave them, they begin to act out more and more and more because they think if I can just get their attention it'll break their heart enough that they won't leave me, like you're trying to pull on those heartstrings of a mother who's trying to walk out the door.
Speaker 2:And so that's where it's this built in, like mindset that we had as children, kind of going into attachment theory. For people who didn't have that secure attachment with a parent or in early romantic relationships, they might be more prone to be needy and insecure in their communication with a romantic partner, which then can lead to this, to this kind of flow. And then there's the other side of it, which avoidance is just as much insecurity as anxiety, so you can also just ignore someone out of your own insecurity as well, which again doesn't lead to that's very common in modern era ghosting and things or people who take a long time to reply, which may be appropriate We'll talk about that in a bit but the A so the A is to allow the other person to respond, so you want to make space for conversation to happen.
Speaker 2:And then the R is for you to respond back in a way that is empathetic, that is strong and calm and gentle. So it's really and this is kind of the part of communication most people think about there's a sender and there's a receiver, but then there's the receiver back to the sender. Right, Communication isn't just one way. You have to know that that message got to the other person. Well, that's what the A and the R are for.
Speaker 2:So I'm providing space for you to reply to me and then, after your reply and I'm listening, one of the things we were taught in therapy school, like in my master's program for therapy, was, if you are thinking about your response, of what you're going to say to someone, as they're talking, you are not listening, and so it's actually a sign of deep respect and like showing that you're intently listening, that when a person's done for you to say I need time to process, to think about my next, like what I want to say back to you you don't have to say, you don't have to have anything queued up, you can have a pause in between sentences from two people, and and that's good.
Speaker 2:So I want to listen to what you have to say and I want to truly understand it. I want to, even if I, and especially if I disagree not even if I disagree, especially when I disagree I want to really then understand your side and why you're coming at it from the perspective you're coming from it at, and then I will. Then the onus is on me once again to respond back to you and continue that conversation in a way that shows respect and care and empathy. Feels like the complete opposite of defensiveness, yeah.
Speaker 1:As close as.
Speaker 2:Defensiveness shuts every communication down. Defensiveness, stonewalling, criticism, contempt those four horsemen that Gottman talks about. They just shut down communication and they shut down intimacy. So true intimacy is found not just in the bedroom, but in the mental and emotional connection from seeking to understand the other person.
Speaker 1:Well, and you talked about intimacy in the bedroom for for especially women and I think men struggle to grasp this for women, the intimacy that will lead to intimacy in the bedroom starts. So I've heard sex therapists say you know the preceding 24 hours before sex. I think it's much more than that. It could be years, it could be decades, but you know what can you control. And the intimacy that you know precedes sex is of the absolute, utmost importance, you know, for men to understand that that's what women need. Going into that, what's the T?
Speaker 2:Take it one day at a time, meaning not every conversation is going to be perfect, not every day is going to have the perfect conversations, but you can wake up tomorrow and try again. Now, my favorite thing is when people ask and I get this all the time, it never fails. If I'm doing a webinar, I'm talking about smart contact or anything, or smart communication and people say, well, I've been trying that and it's not working. And I love that question because it's an, it's a teaching opportunity and a chance for me to like correct some, some incorrect thoughts. There's no way this doesn't work now, because this is the framework for healthy communication period.
Speaker 2:Look at the research, look at the psychology. We've just boiled this down into things that are simple to understand and execute on. But now what someone may be saying is well, I've been doing this, but the other person is still ignoring me, acting a fool, whatever. Okay, but you can't control them. And even if you try and change your communication to try and control them, for them to respond in the way that you want them to, well then we're back at a push behavior. You're trying to control and force someone to do something that they aren't naturally doing on their own, and so that's not the way to look at it. We have to take ownership and realize the only person I can control is me. I could do smart contact perfectly. You still have the free will to be a complete jerk if you want to.
Speaker 1:I will exercise that free will.
Speaker 2:But I also have the choice of whether I'm going to fall to your level or if I'm going to raise my standard of myself. Yeah, and that's the choice all of us get to make. And there's some trying people in the world Friends, neighbors, family members. Yes, I feel like everyone has the crazy Thanksgiving family member that they dread seeing, especially after elections, especially after elections, especially after elections. And so all of us have those people in our lives that we're like oh, I just want to give them a piece of my mind, I just want to whatever. But if you want to have a healthy relationship with someone smart, relationship with someone smart, being smart about your communication is the only way for you to interact in that relationship to where it will be healthy.
Speaker 1:I wanted to get into, so we've we've talked about kind of established relationship communications.
Speaker 2:And did you know about? Did you know about smart contact before you? I mean, I know you knew the term.
Speaker 1:I knew the term. You had never heard me talk about it. I've probably Well, here's the thing I may have overheard you giving a webinar one day, yeah, like over the years. But as far as doing a deep dive, I could use a refresher.
Speaker 2:So this is like my opportunity to have you as a captive audience.
Speaker 1:Is there a quiz to make sure I've memorized everything? So we've talked about, you know, committed and established relationships, marriage, either one that's in crisis or one that's kind of in a healthy spot. I want to switch gears, and so we have a diverse audience. The majority of our audience is married, but not everybody, or it may be the unfortunate fact that some people are either recently divorced or they they're about to be, and so I want to switch into, switch gears to to dating, communications as well as kind of an. You know this is a.
Speaker 1:I made up the etiquette, if you will. But some etiquette and general principles, and it's funny that you know we talked about SMART and I actually cover. I made my own little acronym, sammc, s-a-m-m-c. It stands for being secure emotionally, so not like encrypting your text messages, we don't care about that.
Speaker 1:Being authentic is the A, being true to yourself. Being authentic is the A. Being true to yourself, being mysterious, that's the first M. Being measured, so like how responsive are you? That's the second M, and then being considerate, and I would also add respectful to the C. So SAM, s-a-m-m-c is the acronym I came up with, which I think kind of covers some of the smart on some level. So if you do find yourself in a setting where you're single especially if you are single, like recently, single again and you're in your thirties or forties, or or higher, no shame in being older and then having to reenter the dating market. There's a lot of reasons that can happen. I'm not going to make any assumptions or judgments against you. You may have noticed, though, that if, if you are older and you're reentering even those of us in our 30s, like if somebody jumps back in there's dating apps. There's more social media, so there's direct messages, instagram or Facebook.
Speaker 2:Yes, we started messaging each other on Facebook. We did.
Speaker 1:Back in the day. So there's all these things and then texting and stuff.
Speaker 1:So communication has become this 24, seven thing when we compare it to a hundred years ago people would write letters, you could make a phone call, but you had to stay in a stationary spot to do so and I and I love that. Back then people understood in person is the king of all communications. Just get to be in person, which I still think we lose sight of that in the modern era. So so I would say that the goal, the, the ultimate goal in all your communications should be at least my personal opinion is try to get face-to-face time with each other. Understood that you know, long-term or a long, I'm sorry, long-distance relationship might be a little harder. I don't love long-distance relationships. I can't tell people don't do them. Because you and I kind of did one when we first started dating. We were six hours apart but we still understood face-to-face time like we did it as often as we could?
Speaker 1:yeah, you're driving six hours, six hour drive twice, I'd roll in at two and three am, which was totally against the rules for the army at certain nights, to you know, before flying and stuff. So let's start with the first one being being secure. I mean, what does that even mean? You know, what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2:To be secure For a man to be secure, for me to be emotionally secure.
Speaker 1:Both, both men and women. Well, okay, it may look different, but I think it's important for both.
Speaker 2:I believe being emotionally secure means that you're not dependent on another person for your self-esteem or confidence. So it's that shift from I don't know how I would live without you to I'd be okay if I had to live without you, and not because you don't want and not because you would want something to happen to that person, but because it's just this shift in you of I'd be sad but I would make it.
Speaker 1:I feel that one of the great enemies of what you just said is a they're the one mentality. So, when putting quotation marks, they're the one. I found the one this person's my soulmate they're this is it. This is the one, this is the person.
Speaker 1:I feel that that mindset can be the enemy of security in many ways, because when things start to go sideways and you're like well this, this is my person. I feel that that mindset can be the enemy of security in many ways, because when things start to go sideways and you're like, well, this, this is my person you know, I've only known them for two weeks, but they're the one, and that happens all the time, because limerence can catch you quick and it can do all kinds of things to you.
Speaker 2:Well, and I don't think that it's always because someone's saying this is the perfect person. I think it's a fear of being abandoned. So, like going back to the cause of the insecurity. It's like maybe they experienced divorce of their parents or some kind of trauma in early on in their life that has led to them and their vulnerability is. I'm so scared of being alone. So it's not even as much about putting this other person on a pedestal, as much as it is like I can't bear the thought of not being good enough that someone would want to leave me. So therefore, you like, for my own mental health and self-esteem, I need you to want me.
Speaker 1:So the second. So the first item being secure, being emotionally secure, that can look like a lot of different things. There's, there's a huge laundry list of what it doesn't look like. Some of that's kind of intuitive though, and what I think, what you just described. So the second item, the A being authentic or true to yourself. So in a way, you know, for men our humor is a part of our dating market value. If you will, if you have a corny sense of dad humor, just go with it. Not everyone's going to appreciate it. In fact, it is going to totally land face first with some people. They'll be like what? Or they won't get it, or whatever. That's fine. They'll be like what? Or they won't get it or whatever, that's fine.
Speaker 1:You know whether it's your brand of humor, your brand of communication style, even down to things like you just don't capitalize letters or use periods or any punctuation.
Speaker 1:that would drive me crazy, but for some people that's just, you know, not putting on a fake self. When you communicate, you're not putting on a fake self. Yeah, when you communicate, you're not. You're not putting on a fake self, You're just being yourself, because you can put on a mask for a little while to impress someone. You can even. You know, some people are really good at figuring out okay, that person's going to like that other kind of person. I can become that kind of person. I can become an actor.
Speaker 1:I can mimic that, but you can't mimic that forever and there's going to come a point where the facade just has to fall off. Hopefully you're not married by the time that happens, cause that could be epic in a terrible way. So, um, being authentic, being true to yourself, that's not the same as if you are just a sarcastic, kind of rude, brash person, just being like, ah, this is who. I am. Just going to put that out there. If there is something that a reasonable person would look at and say that's not healthy, I would say don't make an excuse and be like, oh, I'm being true to myself. I used to do that.
Speaker 1:There were, there were a lot of antisocial, rude or abrasive behaviors that I had that I don't think were healthy or good for myself or other people, and I would use the excuse as just who I am. People just have to accept me, you know, being a big jerk wherever I go, and I'm glad I changed my mindset on that. So we covered the S, being secure. We covered the A, being authentic and true to yourself. So the first M mysterious. You have to have mystery.
Speaker 1:Smooth as caramel you have to use a deeper voice or it won't be mysterious. So there's a principle in the psychological community called the reciprocity principle. Are you familiar?
Speaker 2:Reciprocity principle.
Speaker 1:The reciprocity principle, particularly when it comes to attraction. It states more or less the way they set up the experiment was that there was a group of women examining men from a lead fake Facebook profiles that they thought were real. All the men were attractive, so they already had that kind of stabilizing factor there. The there were some men that they would look at and they would be told by the researchers that those men thought that they, that they were told those men. Those men looked at their profiles and those men thought that they, the women, were attractive. So the psychologist wanted to gauge well, what do you think about these guys? They think you're attractive.
Speaker 1:So then there were some they never had a group that was like, oh, you're ugly, okay. So thankfully they weren't mean enough to do that. They said, but then there was a group that's like, eh, they're, they're kind of meh, they think you're so-so. And then there was a group where they were like we don't know. They didn't say we just don't know if they're attracted to you or not. The group where there was uncertainty got the women's attention a lot more. And bear in mind, all these men are approximately similar in physical attraction and appearance. I don't know how they measured that and made sure of that. But that's what I read about that psychological experiment.
Speaker 2:It was just Chris Hemsworth and his brothers.
Speaker 1:Yeah it was just the Hemsworth guys. Maybe add in like Henry Cavill or something. Yeah, it was just the Hemsworth guys. Um, maybe add in like Henry Cavill or something. Yeah, so the the group, as you can imagine, the group that they were like oh, this guy, he saw your profile, he likes you. Of course they had relatively positive feelings about their dad. They were like okay, yeah we like him too.
Speaker 1:But but and of course, the guys who were like hey, you're so, so they're like. I forget those guys. But the guys that they were like you know, we don't know what they think about you, which we just don't know. They didn't say we can't, we can't figure it out. Those ones captured so much more brain space in the women Cause, then they were wondering well, do they like me or not?
Speaker 1:So, being mysterious isn't I don't, I don't, you know it's. It's ironic for me to give a definition because I am not, like Mr Mysterious. With that being said, I do think there's the general principle that if you go on a first date or a second date, or you're in the especially the beginning of the dating phase and you sit down with the other person and we talked about this- earlier where you mentioned, if you're trying to formulate your response and the and let's say you're a man and you're just like oh yeah, I have an MBA, I have a, I work in finance and, by the way, I'm six foot five and all these things and I drive a whatever car kind of bragging or listing.
Speaker 1:Because men, we know, we know innately that status, performance, competence and all those things are generally attractive. So a technique many men use is just spit all that out on the table, Like just put it all out there on the first or second date. Maybe use subtlety, Maybe don't even use subtlety, Maybe just throw it all out there. But either way it's almost like an accomplishment vomit that we just kind of and many women are repulsed not by the achievements, it's not like the woman's repulsed by the fact that you have a higher education degree or whatever, that's how he talks about it.
Speaker 1:It's the way you go about talking about it and you know the recommendation from most authors on the topic, as well as psychological studies that help support a lot of the literature or the books, is more of a slow drip thing. And the more your prospective mate date whomever finds out through third parties who speak relatively well of you the better. You can't always set that up up, nor should you try and engineer that, but if it happens, it happened. Let's say a mutual friend is like oh yeah, he has an mba, you didn't know that uh, somebody when you and I first started dating, people were like but hold on.
Speaker 2:The backstory is too, though. Like the backstory part of this is too is I had date. I was dating a guy who was a pathological liar, so he was the one who was like oh, I've done this and my family has a house on nantucket and we're friends with tommy hillfiger, or maybe it was ralph lauren, it doesn't matter. Both of them were lies or I've been to africa on this, like yeah. I'm like. I'm like the executive he was like 20.
Speaker 2:He's like I'm the executive director of this nonprofit and it was ridiculous, right Like. So it wasn't just that he was not humble and not mysterious, but he was also a liar, so that was this other part of it. So then, and I knew I needed to break up with them, I was just, I don't know, insecure, I guess. And so then you come along, or come back along, because we knew each other as kids and you show up on my Facebook feed and we had like gone to the same college and my friends knew you, and so it was my friends when I was like oh, I'm talking to the you know this Rob Holmes guy, and they were like oh, rob Holmes, he's such a good guy, you should totally date him.
Speaker 1:I fooled them.
Speaker 2:He, and then they said all these things about you and I was like, ooh, so the fact that it was coming from trusted sources who knew the information to be true and they were sharing it about you?
Speaker 1:And apparently I had made a donation to another friend to go on a mission trip that I thought the kicker I thought it was anonymous, like I and your bestie.
Speaker 1:I guess she saw his because you can see other people on the trip's balance, I guess in some portal, and she saw I go from zero to fully paid, like overnight, and I guess she figured out a way to get on the backend and I don't know if I'm not a tech guy and she saw that I did it and I thought it was anonymous and somehow she found out that I had fully paid for my buddy's trip and then turn around and told you yeah.
Speaker 2:That was like the carrot, it was, that was like the big thing. And I was like, oh, and it wasn't even that you would pay. It wasn't about like you having money, it was more, it was about what you did not. You had more than most college students because ROTC paid you.
Speaker 1:Well, I graduated and was working.
Speaker 2:Right, and this is 2009, so, but it was more so of like you supported missions, you were generous, you like you had gone on some mission trips yourself and that was something that was super near and dear to my heart. So, um, yeah, so all of that, to say like I totally get that the more a guy is like, oh look at all these things I've done, it's so off but it can be off putting.
Speaker 1:So I'm not going to get into tons of specifics on the be mysterious, but don't just don't like accomplishment vomit, especially not on the first date. Don't just be like, okay, you know, if you're going to do that, you might as well just print off a resume with every impressive thing about yourself and just slide it across the table, instead of wasting their time talking about it the whole time.
Speaker 2:So I just wonder if it's really more about humility, because the other thing I think of that's a red flag when I hear mysterious is they're hiding things and that is like an intimacy breaker not an intimacy enhancer.
Speaker 1:And sometimes. So. Here's the terrible thing. Sometimes a person can be hiding things and they come across as mysterious and therefore build attraction, which can be terrible, and therefore build attraction, which can be terrible. And sometimes the person who just wants to put all their stuff out there is just eager. They really like that person and they don't know what else to say. Maybe they're nervous, and so men, when they're nervous, may default to just the accomplishment vomit. I'm pretty sure I've done it before, not necessarily in a romantic context, but not knowing what else to say because I'm in. You know, sometimes we're going to find ourselves insecure and resist the urge as much as possible. That's the only thing I can say to men and women, but especially men to. When it comes to being mysterious, hopefully you're not hiding things, and I think there's a way to be mysterious without coming across as hiding things.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the other thing I'm thinking, if I think about the study and where this point is coming from. So it was that these women knew that these men were attractive but didn't know how the man felt about them. So there's kind of this like cat and mouse chase that's intriguing about it. So when you were telling me about the story or the study, my first thought was, like especially on the front end, when you said they knew that these guys found them attractive. Okay, now, granted, I have not been single for 15 years, so I have not been in the mindset of like hoping that someone might find me attractive and actually the opposite. Like it would be a huge flag, a huge like get away from me If someone told me that a guy thought I was attractive because I'm married. So my first thought when you said that was, ooh, I wouldn't want to know.
Speaker 2:And there was kind of a. There was kind of a little bit of like a stalker-ish feel of like oh, they've looked at me but I don't know who they are, and so that even when you first said it, I was like I don't really like that, whereas if it's, you know, we don't know how he feels about you. Well, it feels a little bit more of like an even playing field and maybe like the guy might not be a crazy stalker. So I'm wondering maybe not to that deep of a level, cause I'm sure these women were single and like would love a really attractive guy to find them attractive. But I also just wonder if there's just a sense in the mysterious part of it's not so much about hiding things, but it's about early on in the relationship not being overly attached, attaching or you know, just not coming on too strong from the get go which you definitely did not do much, to my frustration.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you, if you, especially as a man, if you're a known commodity, then you're a known commodity that can be valuable. You know, if, if a woman is single, ready to mingle, she doesn't really feel like wasting time playing games, especially in the older crowd 30 plus where people are like, look, that's all cute, like all that stuff. But I kind of want to know, does this person want to go forward or not? So you, you have to measure it and I think to a tally of the circumstances.
Speaker 1:Don't, in a, in the pursuit of being mysterious, don't, like ruin something because you're like oh, I'm not going to tell you where I stand on whether or not I like you. And then she's like okay, well, I don't have time to waste. Bye.
Speaker 2:It was like wait wait oops so if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it, as Beyonce would say A ring pop.
Speaker 1:So, being mysterious, that can mean a lot of different things. There's a lot of different opinions, there's a lot of different articles on the internet podcasts, YouTube videos et cetera. So I won't belabor that point too much more.
Speaker 2:But you should be ethical.
Speaker 1:Well, I think my last point kind of covers that being considerate and respectful, and I think that kind of caps it all off. And I'll get there right after this next one, which is being measured. So the first s being secure, the a being authentic, the first m being mysterious and the second m being measured. What I mean by that is don't be over responsive. That doesn't fall in line completely with the young people's philosophy that if you double texture you're quote unquote cooked.
Speaker 3:That's young people slang for if you have to look that up. No, I didn't. It's unfortunate that.
Speaker 1:I know that if, if, um, if you double text, somebody like it's, it's, it's over, forget about it. They're no longer attracted to you sending two texts in a row. Yeah, that's kind of like a young people.
Speaker 2:I send like eight in a row sometimes.
Speaker 1:Well, and especially when it's business and it's not romance or you're married like, we'll double check Well eight times text each other.
Speaker 2:Who cares? Yeah, I was thinking friends.
Speaker 1:When you're married, it doesn't matter, like you should be in a healthy enough marriage. You can text that person 18 times and hopefully it's not in the middle of a fight or something, because then it's going to be a push paper, but if it's just, you know what? I saw eight memes in a row that I thought you would like, and I sent them to you in rapid succession. Who cares?
Speaker 2:That's on Instagram. I will open my DMs from you to a week's worth yeah, yeah, you do reels.
Speaker 1:So when you're first like if you and I were first getting to know each, I wouldn't do that. I'd be like I'll send her one and I'll wait for a response. If, uh, if, if you do and again, I know that I keep saying particularly for the men, because I'm a man and I don't tend to study from the woman's perspective but I can tell you there is a research study out there, so there's a 2014 study by Birnbaum GE and he found that men who are hyper responsive in communications are seen as eager to please. So these men are eager to please others. They have weaker character wow, that's such a slap in the face and they have fewer dating options the weaker character part is particularly hurtful.
Speaker 1:If you're a guy who's just responsive, I I do remember in my younger years I would be hyper responsive. I thought, well, this is just what's polite. And then I'm like, well, why don't girls keep talking to me after months? Right, so, and the the science, if you will kind of backs up the principle that and it stinks that it's a double standard where men can suffer. But if you are a man and you are too hyper responsive, it can hurt you, especially in the beginning phases as a relationship is getting to a point where it's starting to take off. The interesting thing is that it's kind of opposite. For women, being hyper responsive was actually to their favor in the beginning stages Starting to take off. The interesting thing is that it's kind of opposite for women being hyper responsive was actually to their favor in the beginning stages, oddly enough.
Speaker 1:Was I hyper responsive? I don't remember. I think more research should be done on the topic and hashed out and all that and how they go about setting up all these research experiments. I don't fully understand.
Speaker 2:I can see it coming across more. So the bit the first thing you said as eager to please, I can see it coming across as um, that the man maybe doesn't have as much of a backbone, yeah, and another principle.
Speaker 1:So let's say I text you randomly.
Speaker 2:Like now, 14 years into our marriage.
Speaker 1:No, let's say we're at like a two weeks. We had our first date two weeks ago, we had a second date this past weekend and every morning when you wake up, I'm saying hello, beautiful.
Speaker 3:That'd be a bit much. I hope you slept well it would be creepy.
Speaker 1:And it's like a paragraph long with emojis and things Like you just said. That's a bit much. Creepy. Creepy. Now 14 years of marriage. I don't do that, but you know.
Speaker 2:You should Perhaps.
Speaker 1:I should.
Speaker 2:That's your challenge.
Speaker 1:Every single morning. I try. You know, there was a while, there was a while years ago, I tried to text you good morning, princess.
Speaker 2:every morning yeah, I think this was also around the time you downloaded the Justin Bieber emojis and it would come.
Speaker 1:Those two things complement each other really well. Actually, I should get the Justin Bieber emojis.
Speaker 2:And that was before we liked Justin Bieber. It was when he was still like a kid and not when he was actually good.
Speaker 1:So that was fun. So being measured, that's not just how responsive you are as a man or a woman, that's also, I think, going back to reciprocity, even though it's not the reciprocity principle when it comes to texting. And, by the way, you it's not like, never double text If I need to correct something in a text and I shoot a second one out with an asterisk, showing that autocorrect screwed me, like it normally does, on something Um, and I want to correct whatever the word was Um. Or if I want to correct whatever the word was. Or if I want to clarify real quick double text or even a triple text, especially if they're in rapid succession and it's not in a pushy direction, not necessarily a bad thing. With that being said, if I shoot you, let's say that good morning text. Let's say the scenario I threw out earlier. Two weeks ago was our first date. We had another date this past weekend and since the second date I've been texting you.
Speaker 3:Good morning, princess like every morning, with a paragraph long stuff.
Speaker 1:So you wake up and you see that and you're like, oh, Again. Well, I tell you what I'll respond to this guy. But let me, let me get my workout, some breakfast, a shower, Bible study, all the things, and then come noon, you still haven't responded yet, cause you're just busy and you forgot and all this. And so then I there's more.
Speaker 1:So then I follow up with something else and it's a paragraph long. Something else and it's a paragraph long. Don't do that, that's not being measured. That's not being measured, that's not being secure, certainly not mysterious. So just, and I would even argue the last point, and I'm going to roll right into it so S, secure, a authentic, m, mysterious, m, measured, and then C, considerate and respectful.
Speaker 1:Doing what I just described or not being measured can be a lack of respect. And notice. I didn't say when I say respectful, I didn't just say to the other person, to yourself too. You're not being respectful to yourself, you're looking kind of pathetic. So don't do that. And I understand that, especially if someone hasn't dated for over a decade and they're going back into the dating market. Things are different, they're confusing, but just carrying yourself with a degree of of dignity and realizing that you have worth and hopefully you're not coming out of a relationship where you felt like you had no worth, right, so being considerate and respectful. But that's also being considered respectful, of course, to the other person too. It's not considerate to you know. Throw up, because I want something from you, because I'm throwing out these, the good morning princess text messages to you that are like a paragraph long and the reality is I'm not sending those to actually make you feel good. Really, I want something in return. I want validation.
Speaker 1:Right, I want you to be like oh how sweet I love you. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like you know that's, that's what somebody is wanting in return. Be considerate and respectful of that other person and don't put that on them. Don't put your hangups and your insecurities and don't put all this emotional responsibility on them. Of course that's going to push them away. They want to be in a relationship of equals, not a codependent relationship where they have to constantly reassure the other person. So, in a nutshell, the acronym that I made up 15 minutes before starting this secure, being authentic, true to yourself, being mysterious, being measured, being considerate.
Speaker 2:You know, I think we could turn that into a word if we workshopped it a little bit. I think smack. We could get to a smack at some point. Talk smack.
Speaker 1:Um, I see you've written some things down. What do you got? I was writing down possible takeaways what?
Speaker 2:do you got? I was writing down possible takeaways. What are your key takeaways from the episode?
Speaker 1:Don't listen to respond.
Speaker 2:Be smart by talking smack, sorry, we'll get there, okay, what were you saying?
Speaker 1:Don't listen to respond. Start from a position of self-love and self-acceptance when it comes to security. That's what I think being secure is, and when you're secure, you're confident. So start from a position of self-acceptance and self-love. I think that's really kind of the hack to being secure. And then don't listen to respond, listen to engage meaningfully.
Speaker 2:So how do you come from a position of self-love and self-acceptance?
Speaker 1:Well, that's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker 2:It's working on your pies.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. Well, that's a whole nother podcast. Um, it's working on your pies, yes, yes. In a nutshell, that's, that's a big part of it. I also believe that accepting oneself where you're at, that doesn't that's not the same as liking where you're at, but accepting yourself where you're at, not just physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually also. Yep.
Speaker 1:You look at the reality of a given thing in your life good, bad or otherwise and you simply accept. It doesn't mean you have to like it if it's bad, it doesn't mean that you don't try and change it if it's unhealthy, you just accept this is what reality is right now. And when you start accepting because you can't fix that which you don't acknowledge is a problem and when you start accepting the good, the bad and the ugly, I believe that's where you really start to truly love yourself, make changes and you're confident. You can look other people in the eye, because you can look in the mirror and not be overwhelmed and repulsed by the person you see and I'm not just talking about looks here. So that's what I got.
Speaker 2:It's a great episode.
Speaker 1:Good, good stuff.
Speaker 2:Good stuff.
Speaker 1:Let's go get dinner at your sister's house.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's going to do it until next week. Stay strong.
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