How To Give And Receive Feedback with Dr. J.R. Briggs

Today we are tackling something that we all have to deal with, but very few of us actually know how to do well: feedback.

In this episode, I am honored to be joined by leadership coach, speaker, and author Dr. J.R. Briggs. We are diving deep into the art of giving and receiving feedback, figuring out which of the two is actually more important (spoiler alert: it’s receiving!), and uncovering why feedback often feels so personal and scary.

J.R. shares an incredible story about trapeze school that perfectly illustrates why we need outside perspectives, and we talk about the practical things you can start doing today to completely change how you handle criticism and praise.  We discuss how creating healthy feedback loops is the ultimate key to emotional intelligence and growth.

I walked away from this conversation with three specific things I am immediately applying to my day-to-day life, and I know you will too.

Take the free PIES assessment to see your inputs, outputs, and where your biggest area for growth is: https://kimberlybeamholmes.com/pies-assessment

In this episode, we cover:

Why receiving feedback is a more vital skill than giving it

The trapeze analogy: why we desperately need outside perspectives

Practical steps for receiving tough feedback without getting defensive (and the only two words you really need to say)

Why you must ask for permission before giving someone else feedback

How to calm your "reptilian brain" when you feel angry or triggered

The danger of overdrawing your "trust bank account" in relationships

Two powerful, vulnerable questions you can ask your trusted circle right now to uncover your blind spots

This is The Way You Show Up — a podcast and YouTube series all about the science of attraction and influence, and how focusing on these four pillars changes the way you show up at work, at home, in your marriage, in your parenting, and beyond.

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📖 J.R.'s Latest Book: https://bit.ly/4l2cJjI

Dr. J.R. Briggs lives with a clear and focused calling: to grow fruit on other people’s trees. 

His work seeks to bridge the gap between spiritual formation and actionable leadership practices, aiming to help faith leaders and their organizations grow both in their faith and their impact on their communities. 

I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.

The Way You Show Up is for the high-achiever who is tired of "fine."

We're dismantling the average life to build an exceptional one—using the science of the PIES: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual health.

If you want to save your marriage, go to Marriage Helper. If you want to master yourself and lead your legacy, stay here.

New episodes every Tuesday.

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Transcript

Guest Intro: J.R. Briggs

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Today we're talking about giving and receiving feedback, and we're gonna figure out which of these two is more important. And more than anything, we're going to be talking about practical things that you can start doing today to make a difference at how well you receive feedback and how well you give feedback to others. I don't know about you, but this was something that is immediately and directly applicable to me, and I believe it's going to be applicable to you too. I walked away from today's conversation with three things that I cannot wait to go back into my normal day-to-day life and do because I believe it's going to make a difference and make my relationships better. Today I am honored to be talking to Dr. J.R. Briggs. He is a leadership coach, he is a speaker, he is an author, he has written several books, including his most recent one, The Art of Asking Questions, just came out in October. And I highly recommend that you go and check it out because I know for me, asking better questions gets to the heart of so many disagreements, so many opportunities, so many things in life, so much better. In fact, I've even heard it said before that the result of an answer that you get, or the type of answer that you get really all depends on the type of question you ask. Better questions equal better understanding, better results, better future. Highly recommend that you go get it. And again, we don't even talk about this book. We are on this podcast, but I know that you are going to love JR as much as I truly and thoroughly enjoyed speaking with JR. I learned so much. You will too. Let's dive in to today's conversation. JR, as we start, I was thinking, what is the best feedback that you have ever gotten from someone? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

When you say best, do you mean like uh most painful but most significant?

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Or what's the worst feedback you've ever gotten?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Well, I will tell you a story. I don't know if it's the best, but it gives me the best example of why feedback is so important. And you may chuckle at this, but my whole life, I've always wanted to go to trapeze school.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

What?

The Trapeze Lesson In Feedback

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah. And and um, yeah, I I like I ride the unicycle and I can juggle and bounce things on my chin. And anyway, my wife thinks I did chose the wrong career by not going into the circus. But I've always wanted to go to trapeze school. And so I thought that would be a lot of fun. And but where do you go to trapeze school, right? Well, a few years ago, my parents who lived in Phoenix was about four hours away from Las Vegas. Um, this was several years ago. Our kids were little and they said, we'll take the kids, just take the car and just go to Vegas for a couple of days. Well, we don't party and we don't go to shows. And so we're like, we don't gamble. Like, what are we gonna do in Vegas? And I started Googling around and I saw Trapeze Las Vegas, and I'm like, that would be a blast. Let's do it. And I asked my wife, she's like, You'll do it with me. I was like, Yeah, really? She's like, No, no, no, I'm not gonna be up there. I'll go with you and record from the ground. Um, and so I had Chris, who was the Cirque de Soleil trapeze artist at night at the MGM. He taught this class during the day. And it was awesome. Well, I was slowly getting it. I mean, it's heights don't scare me, and I can kind of hold my body weight up on a bar, but um, I just wasn't getting it, it was just too much to think about. What I didn't know is when you land on the net nice and safe, and you have harnesses, you roll off the net, and there's another guy there with like a 60-inch flat screen TV. And I didn't realize there's a camera up above and it watches your every move. And so he's right there. He had rewound it, he has his remote, and he's slowing it down frame by frame, pausing it, going, hey, this is good. You need to arch your back more. Oh, remember when you get to this spot, you have to open your legs up, like extend your legs to let go of the bar behind you. And I remember thinking, this is awesome. Not only being up there, but being down here and having this like guy with a remote and going back. And I was like, oh, now I see it. I say all that to say that's the power of feedback, is as if somebody has a clicker in their hand and a big 60-inch flat screen TV rewinding it saying, Hey, just so you know, I know you experienced it yourself, but from another angle, and we slow it down. This is what is going on in your life. And so is it the best? No, is it the most fun feedback? Probably, but it was the example for me that said, this is what feedback can do in every area of your life. And Ollie was helping me. And by the way, by the end of the time, I was able to nail the trick. I don't think I would be able to nail the trick had the guy on the ground not been giving me those diagrams every time I tried an attempt. So, anyway, probably not what you're looking for, but that to me is like the funnest.

Why Feedback Feels So Personal

SPEAKER_02 6:34

That is a super fun one. And I believe, JR, that it that it paints a really great picture too, because you on that tight rope, you can't see what other people see. And those are the things that for you to actually do what you need to do is going to make the difference, right? And so, gosh, thinking about me like recording myself in different situations in my life, uh, not on, you know, not on a trapeze, but but even in some like an argument that I have with my husband or a meeting that I'm in with my team, there's some like, oh, how would I see myself? And how would that come across? Uh and and that's what we get, right? We can't always play the card play the playback, but we can hear it from other people. So, why is it so difficult, you think, for us to hear feedback from other people?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yeah. Several things. The first of all, it's it's difficult because it's so personal. I mean, let me just acknowledge that giving and receiving feedback is hard because it's scary and it's awkward. And maybe some of your listeners, like you and I, have probably been hurt or shamed through the process of giving or receiving feedback. And so because it feels so personal, even under the best circumstances when feedback's given to us, it still feels like you hate me. You know, it's like a personal attack. That's that's the the first one. The other thing is we just it hasn't been modeled well, and so it's really hard to actually do something if it hasn't been modeled well for us. And we also, sadly, we we have a little bit of uh of bias of thinking, well, because it's my life, I do this really well already, or it's not that bad, or they're probably not um giving me enough credit. You know, do they know how hard I worked on this? And so because of that, it's we feel underappreciated and totally exposed. And because it's not modeled well, then we just either do it poorly or we just don't share it with others, or we share it with others inappropriately, but behind their back. And so that's where feedback can be really, really hard.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

What do you think is more important or a more important skill set to develop? Giving feedback well or receiving feedback well?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

It's a fantastic question. Most certainly healthy relationships require both. But I do believe that receiving feedback is more important, followed close by a close second of giving feedback. What do I mean? Proverbs. You know, wisdom welcomes correction. Fools resist it. I mean, it's just over and over and over again in the Proverbs. So I mean, I'm just gonna a couple here in front of me. You know, Proverbs 15, 31 and 32. Whoever heeds life-giving correction will be at home among the wise. Those who disregard discipline despise themselves, but the one who heeds correction gains understanding. I mean, it's just a mark over and over again of that. How about this line, Proverbs 12, 1, always sticks out to me. Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge. So discipline could be, it is a form of feedback. But whoever hates correction is stupid. It's like, tell us what you really think, you know? So if we hate correction, if we don't receive feedback, the scriptures say we're stupid. And so that's uh that's why I really believe if we can have the humility to receive feedback well, then I think we will also earn the trust and the right to be able to give feedback in that. If we start with giving feedback but can't receive it well, um, that doesn't bode well for uh how we interact with other human relationships.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

You know, I I love that you brought up Proverbs. I started reading Proverbs in January, so just a chapter a day. And yeah, or a couple days ago, I said to my husband, I said, So basically, and I've you know I've read Proverbs before. I was like, basically, it says, Don't be stupid, keep your mouth shut, and don't lend money to people you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Like it was Yes, yes, absolutely. I love that you brought that out because the in the Proverbs there are several there are several themes. Um, the difference between wisdom and foolishness is how we use our tongue, how we use our time, how we use our money, how we use our genitals, and how we respond to feedback.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Oh my gosh, can you repeat all those?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Okay, between the difference between wisdom and foolishness, yes, is how we use our tongue, uh-huh, how we use our time, how we use our money, how we use our genitals, and how we receive feedback.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

That is fascinating. I have never heard that before, and yes, it makes total sense. And it is, it's all about discernment and prudence and how to like seeking wisdom and going after wisdom. Um, and so in in that, let's get real practical. So you said to receive feedback well, it allows us to earn the trust from someone else to in the future give them feedback. So, what are some things that we can do to be good feedback receivers?

Humility, Identity, And Openness

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yes, yes. So, one of them is to ask better and more specific and more thoughtful questions out of humility. Um, sometimes we ask really generic questions like, so what do you think? But instead, it's to be more specific to say, you know what, I realize I've been sarcastic the last several months, uh, and I want to get better at that. Do you feel like I'm bringing sarcasm into our conversations? Or if you're a presenter, hey, you know, rather than say, How did I do if I am a speaker or preacher or presenter, but instead to say, you know, I've really been trying to work on the my introduction, the first five minutes. Or I've been saying a lot of filler words of um and yeah, and uh, did you sense that that was present? And how can I get better at that? So I think that you can ask more specific questions, number one. Um, Adam Grant talks about having a challenge network. And I think we all need a challenge network. These are people that love us, know us, want what's best for us, but they're completely truthful with us when we need to get better. They push us to say, you know, that presentation you gave, you've done better. It fell flat, wasn't engagement. I think you can do better next time, rather than like, oh, everything was great. Um, I think the other thing, too, we can uh we can do is prime the pump. What do I mean by that? Like, if I get done with a conversation and I'll say, you know, honey, I I want to get better of not being so defensive. But I want to start by saying, I didn't, I didn't feel like I did a great job. I was defensive. So if I own it first, then it's easier for them to say, yeah, I think you were a little bit defensive. Or if I'm leading a team meeting and I say, you know what, I feel like I talked a lot more than I should have in that team meeting. But I'm curious, what what do you think? Was that so I'm not trying to be uh I'm not trying to knock myself or um be self-eff effacing, but um, but I kind of am because I'm trying to give them an in for them to say, yeah, yeah, I kind of felt that too. Um, it is so hard, Kimberly, but when you receive feedback to make sure you don't react or become defensive to receive it graciously and humbly, and even on the insides, when you may just be saying, like, um, you know, I don't know, like, what? I didn't do that. Are you kidding me? It's just to take a breath. And I've learned that the only two words that I really need to say is only two. Thank you. Thank you. It doesn't mean that I always agree with them. It doesn't mean they're always right. It means that I'm thanking them for taking the time to share it with me. And I'm rather they share it courageous and courageously with me to my face than to gossip about me behind my back or to keep it buried. So thank you for having the courage. Thank you for sharing. I feel honored that you brought it to me. It doesn't acknowledge everything you said was just right. What I'm doing is then coming, if going back to it and saying, okay, Lord, is this true? Or to other people. This was feedback I got. Do you agree or disagree with this? Or I could journal and reflect about it and go, you know what? Yeah, rewinding the tape. I could have, I could have done it better. The other thing I instruct people to do is once you get that feedback, is to write it down and write it down fairly quickly after you receive it. Why? Because we get defensive and the alarm goes off and a lot of things happen in a day. If you write it down shortly after, we won't exaggerate what people say. You know, do they say I always am sarcastic or am I sarcastic in certain conversations? I can quickly extrapolate to make them out to be the bad, the bad person. So write it down as specifically as I can remember it. And sometimes I'll circle back and say, I just want to make sure I caught it. Is this what you said? Is this the essence of the feedback you were giving me? I just want to make sure I get it right. And then to work on it and say, not 15 things, but one thing. They may have offered 15, but can I do one thing? And then from that one thing to work on it every day, even if small, for 30 days, and to just say, okay, I'm gonna try to eliminate sarcasm every day for a whole month. Can I train myself that way? And then to circle back around later and say, Hey, I've been trying to work on what you said to me about my sarcasm. Do you sense I'm improving in that? And if so, how? But be honest with me. If not, please tell me because then it's gonna show me I still have some more work to do. Man, that it's a lot of inner work you got to do to ask that. So I'm not saying this is easy, especially in the moment. And feedback is way better to receive when I'm expecting it or when I'm initiating it. It's way harder to receive it when I didn't know it was coming, and it's much harsher of content and harsher of tone and presentation than maybe I was ready for. So I'm speaking as someone still picking up the breadcrumbs along the trail myself. I'm learning alongside of uh uh of you and your listeners here too.

Practical Tools For Receiving Feedback

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I mean, so much of what you have said with uh, you know, don't be defensive, prime the pump, try and own it first, intentionally seek it out. Even if you don't agree with it, write it down, thank them. I mean, all of this does come back to really I think, and tell me what, tell me if you think differently, this idea of there's a baseline of humility underneath it. And so maybe the next question should be because I wrote down a lot of questions around several different aspects you you wrote, such as, you know, uh, well, what's the line between asking for too much feedback? Like, is there a time where you're just trying to ask for it in order to hear good things about yourself? Or, you know, what about if it's literally or actually coming from someone that you don't agree or that you don't have a relationship with, or they're totally off base. But maybe I maybe we should start with just how do we become more humble so that we can receive feedback better and ultimately give and just have a different hand posture with it, right? Like sometimes I think like this, right? Like I'm gripping my hands or you know, not what what am I doing? Clenching my hands into a fist when I get feedback and it's like, here's all the reasons I want to fight you, or here's the things I don't want to give up about, me about what you're saying, here's all the reasons you're wrong, as opposed to this very open-handed position of like, hey, if you have something that can help me be better, help me be a better steward, like I want to hear it. And it's just a much more open-handed posture that's hard to get to sometimes. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yes, yes. I've had to train my thinking very intentionally in this area. There are other areas I need to do better at of training, but I've worked very hard and I feel like I've there's been a long way to go still. But some of those things I say to myself are some like mantras. One of them is a quote from Ken Blanchard where he said, Feedback is the breakfast of champions. I love that line. I say that line all the time. And I go, JR, feedback is the breakfast of champions. It's the only way I'm gonna grow. So to me, that's an important piece to remember. The other one is to remember, even just theologically, like, I am not perfect. As an Enneagram one, I want to be perfect, but I can't be. And so, even just acknowledging theologically, like there's just I I no matter how hard I try, I can't be perfect, which means there will always be room for improvement in me. Um, another mantra that I've said to my to my boys when I mess up and and yell at them or I'm impatient or whatever, I'm in an irritable, in a bad mood, especially when they were younger, is I not as an excuse, I would repair quickly and say, I shouldn't, dad shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have snapped like that. I shouldn't have. And one of the lines I say, and it's not to excuse my behavior, but to help them understand, I say, Dad will not be a perfect dad, but I always will be a learning dad. And so then I translate that over to say, I'm not going to be a perfect human or a perfect leader, but I will always be a learning human and a learning leader. That, to me, I will always make that commitment. So just also remembering, like if I want to grow, I'm going to have to crave feedback and you see it as gifts, see them as gifts and not as curses. Because for my own growth and development, I don't know how I'm going to grow without that. That'll make me a better employee and boss and spouse and parent and friend and human being in so many areas. If I realize it's not about perfection, it's about can I grow 1% every day? Can I just get better and better? It is impossible to be an effective leader if I do not proactively and intentionally give and receive feedback. So it's some of these mantras and things I have to say to myself that actually prepares me for realizing the feedback loops are the only way I can grow. Emotionally intelligent people are emotionally intelligent because they have learned to create regular and frequent feedback loops, whether they like it or not, to learn how to grow in those areas. So I think that's back to the proverbs. If we want to grow in wisdom and emotional intelligence, we're going to have to receive feedback better. I don't think there's any way around it. For thousands of years, that's been the case in human nature, and I don't think it's stopping anytime soon.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Do you think there's any such thing as getting too much feedback? Maybe probably in this instance, it would be you're requesting it all the time. Do you think there's do you think that's a possibility?

Avoiding Feedback Overload And Motives

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I do. I think the most important question we can ask to start before we open our mouths to ask ourselves, what's my motive? Is my motive that I really genuinely want to grow? Or is my motive some sort of secret way of trying to um seek out affirmation, you know, to to look for uh pats on backs. Um, you know, what is my motive here? I think um some people seek out affirmation through feedback, you know. Um, how did I do? Oh, thank you so much, you know, and then we're sort of fake flattered. On the other side, though, there are some people what I'll call feedback masochists, where they just they just feel like I'm terrible and I I should just hear from everybody how terribly I did, and and then what they do is they dissect it so much it just sucks the life out of whatever they were working on. And so there are times where we just and I'm a like I said, I'm a feedback junkie. There are times we just need to let it go and say, I gave it my best and I'm gonna release it. Um I I was fortunate enough here in my twenties to have met Dallas Willard a few times. And I remember talking with him and saying, Dallas, what do you do when you just have given a terrible talk, a terrible presentation, a terrible teaching, and you just want to beat yourself up? And he gave me this image I still use. He said, I walk off the platform and I just pretend I'm holding a helium balloon. And he said, I just gave my best and then I just let it go. Now he's evaluating that and probably hearing from others of how to get better, but he's also saying, I need to release outcomes to God, and so I release the helium balloon. Some people survey themselves to death, right? Where they sometimes formal surveys, scale of one to ten, how did I do? And they sort of do some hand-wringing. I think we have to know in wisdom when it's time to say, I've got enough feedback. Okay, let's let's move on. Too much of it, I think we get in our own head, and it can provide not humility, but deep insecurity if we're not careful.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Reminds me of something I've heard John Maxwell say before about how he had a mentor who said to him in his earlier years, your speaking ability is a gift. It is not yours. It is God's gift he gave to you. Therefore, like don't let it go to your head was basically the premise of it. And so that's the image that's coming to mind too. The things that we ask for feedback on. Some of it is how we show up and like maybe our character and and things like that. But a lot of the things are also the gifts that we have or the gifts that God has given us that we that I know I want to make sure is the best. And when I can take that, and I don't always do a great job at this, let's be real. But when I can take that and make it separate from me because it's not from me, it's not mine, like it's just a gift. Then I think that mentally kind of makes it easier to ask for and see feedback because it's this this thing. It's not in me, it's like wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yes, and it's and it's also being rooted in what is my identity. Is my identity determined by how by how well I do something? Or is my identity rooted in who I am and to whom I belong? And so there's a lot of inside the house work that has to be done, you know, to say, who am I? Am I defined by the approval ratings of other people? Or is my identity rooted in exactly who I am? And then out of that, I can act or speak or write or interact with my family or my friends. And so, yeah, and let's be honest. I mean, I there was one leader who said, You shall know the true and truth, and it'll make you wince, and then it'll set you free. And there's a lot of truth to that, right? And so there's a lot of like, ouch, ooh. And for me, Kimberly, the hardest feedback is the stuff that when it's said to me, I know is absolutely true.

unknown 26:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Right? It's not the stuff that's like, man, they're crackpots, they don't know what they're talking about. You know, it's the like, oh, you nailed me, and you are exactly right. Ouch. Thank you, but ouch. To me, that's the hardest feedback.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah. The the I want to touch a little bit more on the identity part that you just mentioned. I think the um, at least for me, you know, growing up in church, that who am I? For me, it's something I've heard a lot, especially in my faith, right? It's it's I'm I am all of these things that God says I am. I am a daughter of God, I am loved, I am chosen. How would you explain that though, to the people listening who maybe are not Christians and maybe this is a new concept to them?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yes, yeah, that's great. Um, that is one of the beautiful things about the Christian story is realizing that if it is on our own effort, we're all in trouble. And that sounds pessimistic, but of going, no matter how hard I try, I will always come up short. And that will add all the pressure in the world on me to perform and to find my identity in uh again approval ratings, money, success in my job, my looks, my you know, bank account, my promotion, my job title. And we know how exhausting that actually is. We've all felt it. But to be able to know, as you said, like that we are we are loved, that grace is available to us not because of our performance, but because simply we are a beloved child of God. And that is really hard to grasp, even for someone who I would describe myself as a professional Christian paid to love Jesus. You know, I mean, I'm one of those like pastor Christian leader types, and it's still hard for me. Grace is wonderful, but the world does not operate by grace, as Bono of U2 says, the world operates by karma, God operates by grace. No wonder it's so hard for us to understand what grace actually is. You know, karma says you do a good thing, you get rewarded. You succeed in your role, you're applauded. You don't do well in your job, you are shunned. You do something wrong, you pay for it. That's that's a hard place to be. And so it doesn't mean we don't try. It doesn't make us lazy. It means that we're freed up then to live out of our identity with the right motives. As Dallas Willard said, that the good news, the gospel, is not against work, it's against earning. And that differentiation is really important.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Man, it it is really important. It's also sometimes a very blurry line, depending on how someone's wired. Are you have you ever heard? I'm a geek, so I'm a researcher, I love research, and there's this uh theoretical, there's this theory in psychology called the contingencies of self-worth.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Have you ever no, no, I'm curious, tell me.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

I think you'll love this. So uh they're in a secular school, I can't remember the school, but the researcher was uh Jennifer Crocker, and she looked at, okay, what I want to research what are the contingencies of people's self-worth? What are the nine different areas that people are most likely to place their self-worth in?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Oh, fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

There were things like family support, competition, appearance, virtue. I'm not gonna remember all nine right now, but God's love was one of them. And what she found was that over time, the people who put the majority of their contingencies of self-worth in God's love were the ones that had the most like stable feelings of self-worth, overall life satisfaction levels. And it was it was also kind of up there with like family support and virtue. But these other things like competition and appearance and the ones that were just so much more fleeting.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Isn't it though? I love when research just backs what the Bible has already pulled up.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I love that, Kimberly. Isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 31:07

I I just it makes me warm and aside.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yes. Yes. Um, oh, that's fantastic. I want to actually look that up and dig into it myself. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

But yeah, I'll I'll also be sure to email you even just like the original papers that she that she wrote on.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yes.

How To Give Feedback People Can Hear

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Um, because I just I just find that so fascinating. Okay, we've talked about giving receiving feedback. This is the most important thing uh for us to be able to do. It requires humility, it requires like asking questions that we get clarity, not being defensive, going, not attacking someone when they do it, just simply saying thank you. Let's transition now into what if we what if we got something on our mind and we have some feedback to give? What are the things that we can do to make sure that we try and do this in the best way possible?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah. Well, I've had this is a hard-fought lesson that I've had to learn that's taken several years. I probably should have learned it way sooner than I have, Kimberly. But, you know, the first thing is asking myself, does this person want to receive it? And is this the right time? I mean, I know that sounds so elementary, but doing the right thing at the wrong time can become the wrong thing. And um, there's a great Edwin Friedman quote, and Friedman talks about this, and it's just a couple sentences, if you don't mind, I'd love to read it because it it's revolutionized how I think about giving feedback. He said, the colossal misunderstanding of our time is the assumption that insight will work with people who are unmotivated to change. Communication does not depend on syntax or eloquence or rhetoric or articulation, but on the emotional context in which the message is being heard. And then this is the line that slays me every time. People can only hear you when they are moving toward you. And they are not likely to when your words are pursuing them. Even the choicest words lose their power when they are used to overpower. Attitudes are the real figure of speech. And it is that line that I read several years ago. People can only hear you when you're moving toward them. And it could be physically, but also as we, you know, emotionally, relationally, socially. I can give feedback until I'm blue in the face. And it could be really brilliant. But if they aren't moving toward me, I'm probably wasting my time and maybe theirs too. And I think there have been times I've metaphorically wanted to bang my head against the wall of going, I'm trying to help you. Why won't you let me help you? I want to give you feedback. But they're so resistant. And so that's hard. And people say, Oh, do we never give our kids feedback? I'm like, no, that's that's different. That's instruction, that's guidance as a parent. But feedback, yeah, it's really, really hard. And so that's why I have to ask, does this person want feedback? There are a few exceptions. I do need to tell someone that they need feedback if they may not even want to hear it. But true change happens when people are moving toward us, which is why trust is important. But also what is their level of intrinsic motivation here? And is this the right time? There are times I want to hear from other people, um, friends, family, but I'm just not in the right headspace. And I have to say, you know what? Yeah. I I hope my friends and family give me feedback, but not right now. I'm pretty tender. I'm pretty raw, I'm pretty vulnerable at the moment. Tomorrow or next week, I'm gonna probably be in a better headspace to receive it. So I think that's that's the first one. You know, we were taught as a kid about the sandwich approach, right? Affirmation, feedback, affirmation. I think we that that can be a helpful principle, but it we have to be careful that it doesn't come across so robotic that people are like, oh, they're just saying that nice thing because uh-oh, here comes the hard part. So we want to be really careful about that. But to give it specifically, frequently, and in small doses and not all at once. We can overwhelm people. They walk off the stage and say, Do you have any feedback for me? Yeah, I've got 15 things that you didn't do well. Whoa. How about you just pick one or two? Um, I find too that people are less defensive when you ask for permission. Not only is it respectful, but it actually helps give them a few more seconds to prepare themselves that something is coming and to put their guard down. So it could sound something like this. You know, I have some feedback that I believe could help you moving forward. If you'd ever like to know that, just let me know and I'd be glad to share it. So I'm not even sharing it. I'm saying I have feedback, but you're in the driver's seat. You tell me if you want it. So that's the first one, or a little bit more direct. Can I provide you some feedback in this moment? I think that would be helpful. It's a bit rhetorical, but it's still invitational. Very rarely will people say, no, don't give me feedback. But I'm doing it as a polite way of, hey, I really think this could be helpful. Or maybe a little bit less direct. You know, I'm curious, um, how would you know if you're doing a good job by leading your staff meetings? Like, I don't know. Or how do you know if you're communicating well in your marriage or with your kids? I don't know. It's like, well, if you'd ever want a little bit of feedback, I'd be glad to provide a gentle mirror to hold that up if that would be helpful. So I think that's that's that's helpful, especially if you are a supervisor or in some sort of authority role, to sprinkle it in regularly rather than dump it all at once. Why do we get so scared to death of an annual review at work? It's because we haven't gotten feedback for 364 days, and then all of a sudden we're gonna get this formal dump professionally, and so we don't know if we're gonna get promoted or fired. Well, as supervisors, it's good to just sprinkle in positive and negative regularly rather than one dump truck backed up and then just dumped all over our desk. Um, and then again, how matters, our tone, our body language, our volume, our pace. And so, yeah, how matters, how we do things really matters. So there are a few more I could share, but I'll stop there. But those are those are a few ways that I've had to learn, sometimes the very hard way, uh, of my intent was good, but I just inflicted a whole lot of damage or awkwardness onto other people. Um, and so I thought it was helping, but I made it worse.

Pacing, Permission, And Trust Deposits

SPEAKER_02 37:52

I love what you said about um, well, two things. I think the even just the asking for permission, and it made a ton of sense when I heard you say it. It even if you're about to give it, right? Like you're in a situation where you're not really asking if you, if they ever want to hear it come back, but it allowing their brain to just be like, okay, I understand now what's kind of just those brief, because I see it, right? Like I told I just I got it as soon as you said it. Um, and the pacing, I know I have noticed when when I'm like in the middle of a conversation and it's not going well, and I want to give feedback, I tend to speed up or I tend to like feel it internally. And I'm like, I you need to understand something right now, right? And so even just being able to reset myself and maybe not say the feedback the most in some of those conversations, but even just calm myself down and slow my tone so that they don't get as worked up, and it also like keeps me from getting too worked up.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Absolutely, it works both ways, right? And so if we come in and say, Well, you did this and then this, and then after that, this happened, and then I mean, how could someone not grow defensive? But if you say, I just want to share a couple things, there are three, actually, there are three things I want to share. And so here's the first one, and then maybe after the first one I could say, let me just pause there. Do you have any thoughts or before I go to number two? Do you have any thoughts or reflections on that first one? Can I clarify anything for you? Or just let it breathe a little bit, just let you take it in. But anyway, I just want to and they're like, no, that's fine. What's number two? Or yeah, could you clarify what you mean? Or can you give me an example? Yeah. Well, like last week this happened. It's like, okay, all right. Can I share the second one now? I mean, you see how the pacing of that it just allows it to breathe a little bit where people can receive it best.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

100%. So I I would like to get your feedback on feedback I have been given about feedback I give.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Oh, it's getting meta.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

It's been real meta.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Uh I I have been told, and actually, the more I think about it, I think I may have been told this in every area of my life. So I should probably take heed to it, that I can be very um, I'm gonna say the word abrasive. I don't, I don't think that's the word people have said to me, but that's probably what they want to say to me when they when I give feedback. Like I I have heard, I feel like you point out the bad more than you point out the good. And honestly, it's I don't disagree, uh, but I don't feel that way about myself. Like I feel like I'm typically excited and optimistic and like I love you all and you're doing a great job. But for whatever reason, and it can be my own, my own blind spot, like I don't give positive feedback enough. So how or when I give it, it is not received the same way as when the more intentional, like not the more negative feedback, the ones that are more like corrective. So, how would you recommend for me to to shift that perspective in literally? Like I'm thinking, I think I've heard this from one person in every type of area of my life.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Okay, yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, good for you for recognizing that pattern, right? It's hard, right? It's making you wince, right? You shall hear the truth, it'll make you wince, and then you'll be set free, right? You're wincing. That's true. It's not fun, but at least you're not going, well, all my friends are stupid, or they don't understand. So I just want to just say, Kimberly, I love the fact that you just are willing to receive that, even though it's made you cringe. You're going, Yep, this is important to receive, number one. Number two, uh, I think it's really important. Um I always like to say, we live in a world that likes to catch people doing things wrong. Can I be the kind of leader that trains myself to catch people doing things right?

SPEAKER_03 42:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

And so a question I have picked up, and I I never want to ask it when it's disingenuous, is a bit of a rhetorical question that's also affirmation. So it goes like this. Um, how'd you get so good at asking questions, Kimberly? How'd you get so good at helping marriages thrive? I mean, they can answer it, but I'm also affirming you that's what you do really well. They may want to answer it, and that's great. Or how'd you get so good at kicking a soccer ball? How'd you get so good at your ballet dancing? Like, that's amazing. Think of what that would do in a marriage, think of what that would do with our chick, with our kids, with our coworkers, with our friends, our neighbors. How'd you get so good at cutting your lawn? I mean, it could be as trivial as that. Um, and so that to me is catching people things, doing things right. The second thing is I always think about, especially with parenting, um, bank accounts. And can I make deposits into their bank account? And so if I affirm my sons with this, and it could be a big thing or a little comment here or there, but a$20 deposit, a$100 deposit, a$7 deposit. And over time, then when I have to withdraw and I have to make a big withdrawal of several hundred dollars of given some hard feedback, I don't overdraw. If I have not put anything in the trust bank account and I only have 20 bucks, but I've got to make a$300 withdrawal, they're like, who do you think you are? Like, they don't, they don't know me. They don't care about me. And so for me, I'm always thinking, how can I invest in the trust account? And that's a question and a metaphor that I'm thinking about regularly with the people around me. And so if I affirm them, it could be seven bucks. Or if I affirm them in front of the whole company at a company event with 300 people from the microphone, from the from the podium, man, that could be a$200 emotional investment in their account. So then when I have to pull them aside and say, you know what, you do this really well, as I mentioned, but we got to talk about this issue here. And I wish we didn't have to, but for your own growth and development, we're gonna have to talk about it. And it may make us uncomfortable, but we got to talk about it. As long as I don't overdraw, those overdraw fees in leadership are really painful. And so if there's not enough trust in the bank account, we're we're gonna we're gonna have difficulty in how that feedback is received when we give it.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

How do you approach it when you really are riled up? Like you are hot, you are angry. Do you give it? Do you wait? How do you calm yourself down so that you aren't just speaking out of your complete, what is it, the reptilian brain that's like all-yeah, the reptilian brain.

Managing Anger: Respond Don’t React

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah. Yeah. What do you do? It's a great question, Kimberly. I have no idea because that's never happened to me. I never struggle. No, I'm totally kidding. No, I mean, I struggle with this just like the rest of us. Um, I mentioned Dallas Willard uh earlier. Uh another gift he gave me is I had lunch with him one time and I said, What do you do when people are maligning you? I mean, they're just Trashing you. You know, like you know it's not true. They're misunderstanding you, they're putting words in your mouth, they're assigning motives you don't have. And he, I remember he just looked across the table, he reached across, put his hand on kind of on my forearm, and he said, JR, never defend yourself. Only offer to explain yourself. He said, Never react, only respond. And Kimberly, I'm telling you, I think about that probably three times a month. And he said that probably 15, 20 years ago. Because when I feel that rage monster, you know, coming up, I didn't say that. That's not me. What are you talking about? Um, that's not fair. I just hear Dallas slowly in my head saying, JR, don't react, only respond, don't defend yourself. And I love this phrase. He said, only offer to explain yourself. He didn't say explain yourself. He didn't say you listen to me and I'm gonna explain myself. You offer, which means you ask a question, say, you know what, I appreciate you sharing. I feel like there's some additional context that may be helpful. Would it be okay if I explained some of the perspective or the context that went into that decision I made or why I said that or what I was referring to? And sometimes people say no. And I say, you know what? Okay, then I really think this conversation probably needs to come to a close for both of us. No problem. But anyway, so that's that's the the Dallas Willard effect. Uh, is it 100% foolproof? No. I still have you know thought of that and still reacted and still said, You listen to me, and I you, you know, how can you? But I'll tell you, Kimberly, it saved me tremendously from saying things that I that I would regret or acting upon things I would be ashamed of. Um so what do we do if we're riled up? I have loved calling timeouts to say, you know what? I just need about five minutes. Can I just go to the restroom, just gather myself? Can I take a walk around the block? Can you give me five minutes in the bedroom and then I'll just come out? I'll be in a better place. Or can we talk about this tomorrow? I'm not trying to kick the can down the field here or down the road here, but what I am trying to do is realize like, I'm exhausted, I've had a very stressful day at work, um, I'm not in a good headspace. I think with some good sleep tomorrow morning, I would love to be able to chat with you about this. And and and sometimes I have people are like, no, I really want to talk about it now. So, you know what? We can. I'm a little worried, I'm going to say something I regret. And I'm afraid that I may say something that might hurt you. I don't want to do that. And they say, Well, I still think we should talk about it. Fine. Can we do it in 30 minutes? Or can you just give me a few minutes to write out my thoughts on a piece of paper and then maybe I can read those. I'll be a little more measured and a little more, a little less reptilian brain. So I don't know. Maybe maybe this is helpful. These are things I've had to use because I'm not great at it. So I have to employ some of these practices.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Yeah, I I love them. I feel like they're very practical and also give permission. I I think we think, or at least I do, I have to do it now. I have to like, you know, figure everything out or fix it in the moment or get it all tied up in a bow so that we can move on to the next thing and not let it let it linger. So I think it gives permission to say it's okay for there to be time and space and to come back, or to even say, because I think maybe even for me, like, oh, but I might look weak, right? If I say, you know what, I need I need some time, but it it's better for the outcome of the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Right? Ego aside, pride aside, humility rising.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yep, yeah, right. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

To be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Yeah. And sometimes, Kimberly, I have to say things like, like, I mean, I won't go into all the details, but an acquaintance that I know was totally blindsided, was yelled at in a public restaurant. This is last week, that I'm still like in the real moment, like in the real time here, I'm still a little rattled by. And I was so caught off guard. I I normally am not tongue-tied, but I was just like, I I I I mean, I was so caught off guard. And she, if she knew the full story and the full context, if she had said, help me understand, I would be like, Let me explain myself. But I was so thrown, she had taken her little slice of perspective and missed the circumstance of the over the last month that had occurred. And I and I just would say, Can I share my? I wasn't even prepared for that. All I could muster out, which I'm grateful I said this is you've given me a lot to think about, and I'll probably need to ponder this for a bit and get back to you. So only thing I could say, and looking back, I thought, it's probably handled fairly well. Like, I don't always handle it well, but of like, you've given me a lot to think about. I need to think about it, and let me come back. And after I reflect. I don't know if it diffused the situation. I think it seemed like it did. Um, and then I was able to come back and then explain some things, not in a restaurant, like across the table, one-on-one. And she wasn't like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know, but by me explaining it, she goes, Okay, that gives me some additional context. What I wanted to say to her was, don't hesitate to ask. Like, can you help me understand? Dot, dot, dot. Or from my perspective, I see this. Am I missing anything? That's the feedback I would have loved for her to ask, because we would not have then had that weird situation of uh, you know, yelling in a restaurant being yelled at. So I'm still stinging from that. Um, that may be a little bit too much vulnerability here on the podcast, but I I feel like, yeah, this is even though I love this and lead trainings on this, I'm still learning this in real time too.

Building The Feedback Muscle

SPEAKER_02 51:56

I think it is it is life-giving to know that we're never gonna get to this place. There's not this, you know, pin ultimate, we will arrive, everything will be easier. Human relationships are messy and it involves a lot of things. I mean, one of one of the things I say often is I feel like some of the biggest miracles God performs is restoration of relationships because it takes two people who have total free will. And then, like when that can happen, it's like, man, what a picture of of the gospel. But it's hard. So I appreciate the openness and realness. And it it kind of sounds like over time, it's a muscle that we can kind of work and at least get better at the response, even if even if the words coming out of our mouth in the moment don't match the emotion we feel on the inside, if it can buy us time to sift through that emotion so that we don't end up doing or saying something we regret. That's kind of the gift of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

That's exactly right. And I'm so glad you talked about it being a muscle, because what happens when we don't use muscles? They atrophy.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

And when we use muscles even appropriately at the gym, we wake up really sore the next day. That doesn't mean we did it wrong. It means we did it right. Because that's how our muscles grow. You have to have sore muscles before you experience growth in your muscles, whether it's lifting weights or running a marathon or whatever it might be, you should feel sore. That means you're using your muscles correctly. Um, and so yeah, this is a muscle I and even if we have to pick up the two-pound dumbbells, that's fine. We don't have to start with 50. We'll get there. But I think just giving people permission to say, start small, that's fine. And you're sore, that's fine. We'll work up as the muscle grows. We don't just pick this up overnight. I've been working on this for 20 years, and I still have a long way to go on this. Um yeah, I'm glad you, I'm glad you used the muscle metaphor because it it resonates.

Questions To Ask For Real Growth

SPEAKER_02 54:06

JR, as we as we end, for those people who are thinking, you know what, I want to be a bit more proactive in asking for feedback. What is one question or one phrase or one thing that you would recommend they they go and ask trusted friends, family members that they believe can be honest with them, but what is a good question that they can use to ask for feedback today?

SPEAKER_01 54:30

If we're emotionally prepared, which sometimes, again, it can be vulnerable. I think we could ask uh a question like, can you just name one area where you would like to see improvement in my life? It could be a skill, it could be a character issue, it could be social, spiritual, relational, doesn't matter. But what is not 15, what is one specific area where you think it would be good for me to have improvement in my own life? Um, and I would just say, if it's a trusted person, to do all you can to make sure it's safe enough because they're gonna think does he mean it?

SPEAKER_02 55:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

I mean, does he really mean it? And so to say, I really would love for you to give me the last five percent of the truth. Can you name one area in my life where you would like to see improvement? Um, I'll throw in another one if it's okay, because I love questions, can really quit. Is when I walk in the room, what walks in with me? And I love that question because it's it could be joy, excitement, energy, or it could be judgment, uh, a sour face, irritability. But when I walk in the room, what walks in with me can be a good point of feedback.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

I love that one. I love them both. I will definitely use them appropriately in in the next couple of weeks because I want to know those things. I definitely want to know those things. And I think all of us do. We are just scared of knowing how to word it, who to approach, how to take it. But I fully, I mean, these these things that we have talked about, and you know, I heard you talk about this a couple of months ago as well, which is why I knew I had to talk to you about this because it's so practical and so applicable and so just part of our daily lives that can help us be better and have better relationships and show up better. And so, I mean, for all of those reasons and more, JR, I have loved our conversation and I thank you so much for your time. It's been a gift and a joy. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Well, thanks, Kimberly. This has been great. And I would welcome any feedback, even on or off air. I would welcome that anytime. But you're I'm so grateful for this time. Thanks for having me on.

Host Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Okay, y'all. I told y'all this was going to be an amazing podcast. I took so many notes. And really, when I boil it down to the three key things that I am taking away more than anything, the first one is that feedback is a gift. It's not someone just telling me how I'm not good enough. It's not a way to remind myself that I need to do more or be different or whatever it might be. It's a gift. It's a gift to help me be better, to show up differently and to be kinder or just a better woman overall in all of my relationships. And so for me, I know I can struggle with this, but I want to continually remind myself that feedback is a gift. It's an opportunity for growth. And so we should treat it that way and cherish it. My second key takeaway from today's conversation is asking myself these two questions before I give feedback. Number one, does this person even want to receive it right now? Because the right thing at the wrong time is still the wrong thing. And number two, give feedback specifically, frequently, in small doses, not all at once. And even that point of asking for permission beforehand. Hey, I've been seeing something, or I see a way that you can grow, or I've been seeing a way that we could have better conversations and better communication when we disagree about something. Would you mind if I shared that with you? It allows the brain those couple of seconds to prepare for it. And people always tend to receive things better when the permission is asked for. And then third of all, reminding myself that it's okay for me to simply say, thank you. I need to process this. Or, hey, can we come back to this at a time when I am better able to talk about it? I'm just really drained right now. Because trying to force a conversation when I'm in the middle of being completely riled up, or the other person is in, is in a riled up state, typically you can't fight through that. You're not going to get to a good outcome on the other side of it. So allowing those timeouts is okay. There is permission to do that. And then my bonus takeaway, and I'm going to do this, I encourage you to do it as well, is finding a person in your life, someone who can be honest with you, maybe a couple of people, and either asking the question, when I walk into a room, what walks in with me? Or, hey, if you would like to see improvement in any area of my life, what would you what would you recommend? These are ways that we can always continue to grow, show up different and better in our relationships. And ultimately, it helps us to be more attractive, but also to have even more influence. Until next week, stay strong.