The Biggest Mistake You Make When Friends Ask for Advice with Meredith Ball

Ever feel like you've become the unofficial therapist in your friend group? You're not alone, and I've been there too. Most of us make one critical mistake when someone comes to us with a problem: we try to fix it.

In this episode, I sit down with licensed professional counselor Meredith Ball (LPC) to talk about how to actually support the people in your life without overstepping, shutting them down, or burning yourself out. Meredith helped me see some things about my own listening habits that I honestly needed to hear, especially how growing up in a conservative church environment shaped the way I respond when people come to me with their struggles.

In this episode, we cover:
How to listen without jumping into fix-it mode, what to do when a friend is clearly making a bad decision, when and how to have a moral confrontation with someone you love, the one thing that keeps most of us from truly hearing another person, how to support a friend who's thinking about leaving their marriage, why "do whatever makes you happy" might be the worst advice you can give, what "doing the work" actually means, and the truth about whether AI and ChatGPT can replace real human connection.

Meredith Ball is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Marriage Helper Certified Coach who specializes in helping individuals and couples navigate difficult relational dynamics.

📖 Book mentioned: The Lost Art of Listening by Michael Nichols and Martha Straus

Here's what I took away from this conversation: everything is endurable, learning to set your emotions to the side so you can stay present with someone is a game changer, and how you show up for the people in your life starts with the work you're doing on yourself.

If this episode helped you, share it with a friend who needs to hear it.

I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.

The Way You Show Up is for the high-achiever who is tired of "fine."

We're dismantling the average life to build an exceptional one—using the science of the PIES: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual health.

If you want to save your marriage, go to Marriage Helper. If you want to master yourself and lead your legacy, stay here.

New episodes every Tuesday.

Don't just exist. Show up.

🔗 Website: https://kimberlybeamholmes.com

🎥YouTube https://youtube.com/@kimberlybeamholmes

📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes

👀 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kimberlybeamholmes

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:28

How can you be a therapist without being a therapist? Here's the thing. I'm not actually talking about doing therapy for your friends and family, but there are times where your friends, your family members, a coworker, they come to you and they start talking to you and kind of treating you like their therapist, in the sense of they want advice, they want feedback, they want comfort, and they're coming to you for that. Well, first of all, that's great because it shows some great qualities about you. But secondly, the question that you probably have is how am I supposed to handle these situations? I'm not a therapist, how do I handle it? That's what we're talking about in today's episode. Today I'm speaking with Meredith Ball. She is an LPC, she's also a marriage helper certified coach, and we are talking about all the things, how to be a therapist without actually being a therapist. Let's dive in to today's episode. So we're gonna talk today about a couple things. I'm gonna throw you a curveball later. Are you gonna tell me what the curveball is? No. But I'm real excited to get to it. It's gonna be really great. But to start, we're gonna talk with how to be a therapist without being a therapist. Caveat for the listeners more than anything. Is we are is that we are not talking about how people should like actually try and be a real therapist.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

There are times that you really do call a therapist.

istening Without Trying To Fix

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yes, 100%. But when you're in those situations where it's like my friends are bringing me all their problems, they're talking about their marriage issues, they're trying to like they're bringing a lot of grief and trauma, and I'm not a trained therapist. How do I handle this situation when people are coming to me with really heavy problems, but I don't really know how to help them navigate through it.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

It to me, it all comes down to listening. Listening really, really well. And I think what we're all dying for is to be heard. So it sounds like a pat answer, maybe, but I think there's a lot there in terms of listening really well.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

So let's talk about how do you listen really well and how do you continue to listen really well when you feel like the other person won't stop talking.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

What may really let some people off the hook here is I don't necessarily know that there are a ton of solutions or a ton of situations that we are in where we're our role is to find the solution. In fact, I think a lot of the problems that our friends would bring to us don't have a solution. It's a hard season of life that they get to walk through. And it will be easier for them and better for them when they don't have to walk alone. So keeping that top of mind, I'm not called to fix this problem. I'm not called to solve this problem. I'm not even sure if this problem is fixable. This problem is endurable. And my role is to walk alongside this person really well. So what does that look like? Listening and reflecting feelings, validating feelings, accepting feelings. Um I think that's really good listening. And I think that's the role that we can play.

hen Moral Confrontation Is Needed

SPEAKER_02 4:59

So I'm thinking through uh this is not this is not my situation, this is not a situation that one of my specific friends is dealing with. It's one of my friends is dealing with it about their friends. Okay. Let's follow this rabbit trail for a minute. So um two degrees of separation. Two degrees of separation, and I'm gonna change the story some. So uh you have a friend where there's like you just said, there's not a ton of problems that people bring us that have a solution, or at least it's not our role to fix that solution. But what do you do if you have a friend who's so clearly in a devastating situation that they are continuing to make the wrong choice for? So what if you have a friend who is actively dating a married man, knows he's married, has been dating him for years, and is like, oh, but they're you know, they're gonna end up divorcing their wife one day, they're gonna end up being with me. Yeah. And it's so clearly a terrible situation for them.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

And for that, and of, you know, of course, for that other marriage. But if you're the friend that that person is coming to, how do you even like process that personally, listen, empathize with their feelings without wanting to fix it, without wanting to shake them and say, what you're doing is causing you harm.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah. There there is a place for moral confrontation. And I think there's two buckets that I would put that in. The first is, you know, maybe someone is coming to me with something that feels like a violation of my beliefs and values, but maybe there is some subjectivity there. Maybe there is some fluidity. I think listening, the way I was just defining it, like listening not to solve problems or give advice, feels threatening to a lot of us that maybe grew up in a, like for lack of a better word, like a really conservative evangelical church environment, because we had instruction for everything. And we believed that the cost could be really high if we made a wrong turn in life. And I'm not saying there's not something to that. I'm just saying I do think there's some legalism there that's not always helpful, right? Um, we can all think of those, I think in church I've heard it called those first, first order, second order, third order order levels of importance, right? Maybe there's a few things that we would stake our life on, and there's other things that we can give people the freedom to have their own beliefs. So there is that. And I think we have to be very cautious about what we consider to be something on the level of moral confrontation. Maybe that's not always there. Now, the example that you were giving is someone who's dating a married man. Okay, that would be on the level of moral confrontation according to my beliefs and values, right? So when I come up on that kind of stuff, and that does come up with my clients sometimes, and I have to be careful that I don't impose my own beliefs on clients, but if it does seem like something that could be really damaging, even emotionally, mentally damaging in the long run for my client or for somebody that that he or she is talking about, I will ask permission. Can I give can I have your permission to tell you something that that's that is kind of confrontational and might be kind of hard? Right? So then I get their permission. And and I'll say things like, you know, just this could be kind of hard to hear. This might make you feel defensive. I could understand if it did, because it is confrontation. So don't feel like you have to respond. Right? Take some time and process it. Right? I just don't know if I could be a good friend and not express to you that this feels like a violation of moral principles that that I think are important to you as my friend. Right? It would depend on who you're speaking to as well. There are some friends that I know they would care less about. Certain things that feel like a moral violation to me. So I would choose my words, you know, I would consider and I would choose my words carefully.

egalism And The Urge To Correct

SPEAKER_02 9:14

I want to go back to this concept that you just brought up of moral confrontation and legalism.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

So yes, I also grew up in a grew up in a conservative evangelical home and world, like church, yeah, middle school, high school, college. Right. Um and I even as I'm thinking through my own filter and when friends or family do come to me and they have uh things that they bring up or that they're sharing, I do think I tend to have a reaction, what you were talking about of like there was instruction for me for everything growing up. Like, there's a right way to do things, there's a wrong way to do things, and you don't want to do it the wrong way, you need to do it the right way. So I was like, I always I joke that me and my sister were both pastors' kids, but I was the pastor's kids that followed all the rules, and she was the rebel. So she was the one who like yeah I didn't feel as constrained as I think I do. Yeah. But I do think I tend to bring that into when someone brings something to me. Like if there's an extended family member who talks about uh how his girlfriend asked if they wanted to move in together. And like my first visceral reaction is like, you can't, that's wrong. Like you can't do that. And I do think that it keeps me from listening, yeah, because I'm thinking about the rules, which I do believe are important, yeah, but maybe I'm thinking of the rules more than I'm thinking about the listening or even the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, I get that. Because old habits die hard. Old habits die hard. And you grew up in an environment where there was a rule for everything, yeah. In a good and a bad way. It wasn't even like a good, better, and best way to do things. In a lot of cases, it was it was black and white. There was a right way to handle a certain situation and there was a wrong way to handle a certain situation. So I catch myself doing that sometimes. I think my therapist training has helped me in that. If I'm talking to the person you're talking about that wants to move in with their with his girlfriend, I would say, okay, tell tell me why that makes sense for you, right? And I can at least get a good understanding. Probably his reasons for wanting to do that have nothing to do with the things that I'm concerned about. Like that feels like some sort of a moral violation. And he might say, you know, well, my lease is expiring and, you know, we have these financial considerations or whatever. And that doesn't mean it's the right thing for him to do, but at least you've got an understanding of where he's coming from. And he's, I think, more likely to hear you out if you've hurt him out first, right? Here's where my concerns with the about this would be. I hear where you're coming from. And I hear why on a certain level that could make a lot of sense for you. Here's where I'm coming from. And what why that would concern me if I were in your shoes.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

One of the things that we talk about with the pies now are the inputs and the outputs. So one of the inputs under intellectual attraction is uh, and the inputs are things that we can control. So the four inputs for intellectual attraction, putting myself on the spot here, curiosity and openness is one of them. So how curious we are towards others. Um, perspective taking is uh and critical thinking is another one. Intellectual humility is a third one, and then like purposeful learning. So kind of curating the content that you see. And so as you're talking about this, I'm thinking, and the way that that the and the way that that shows up, it helps us show up different intellectually, is people feel safe with us, like psychologically safe. They build we build trust with others because they feel like we aren't just always looking out for our best interests, we're also looking out for theirs, different things like that. Yeah, and so that's kind of what I'm hearing you even talking about right now is like it's that curiosity, it's that perspective taking, which honestly can be so hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah. Curiosity over judgment. And that was part of my therapy training. And you know, even if you don't agree with what someone is doing, which you're allowed to do, even if you don't agree with what someone is doing, you will have a kinder, more compassionate perspective if you take the time to understand why they're doing what they're doing. It's almost certainly not nefarious on their part. It's not like they're saying, how can I live unwisely and immorally, right? There's some there's some part of their decision process that they probably do have different priorities and different values than you, and that's why there's a disagreement. But take the time to understand why why that is and what's going into their decision-making process.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So we've talked about moral, like the a moral confrontation. So something that can so I'm trying to think now through okay, what are the things that can prevent us from actually hearing another person when they're coming to us and being able to be there for them and and to help them feel heard. So one of them might be like a legalism mindset, a moral confrontation mindset within us. What are some other things? Yeah.

anaging Your Emotions While Listening

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Um, so I was thinking about in preparation for this interview, I was thinking about resources that have really helped me. Um, there is a book that I read in the first semester of my counseling program that it's not an academic book. It's written for a general audience. And I thought it was excellent. It's called The Lost Art of Listening: How Learning to Listen Can Improve Relationships. And it is by Michael Norris and Martha Strauss. And I want to read this, this is going to answer your question, but I want to read the notes that I made to myself on this book. Um, it says this this is the thesis of the book, uh particularly the second part of the book is what I noted. Good listening involves managing your emotions in relation to the person you're listening to. When you're listening to someone, it inevitably brings up emotions in you. Though you need to be aware of your emotions, you have to suspend them while you listen. That's essentially what non-judgment is. You can't be defensive. Though people are not entitled to do whatever they want, they are entitled to their emotions. This was like life-changing for me. If you're the kind of friend and family member you want to be, you'll allow people to tell you what they're feeling without telling them they're wrong. And then I made a note to myself, I'm over here crunching in the corner of how wrong I've been about that for an untold number of years. So why is listening hard? Because it brings up your own stuff. For good or bad. It brings up your own stuff. And you have to be aware that your own stuff is getting brought up and hold it over here to just be present with the person that you're listening to. Right? That's a whole nother level of self-awareness. For sure. And that's why I think listening is so hard, is because we're not even sometimes aware of the ways that we're being triggered, yeah, for lack of a better word, when somebody else is talking, much less are we trying to like let me suspend this over here so that I can make sure I fully understand before I respond. So this is active listening. I use this all the time in the client with the clients that I'm working with, especially if I'm working with a couple, right? Like, if if I'm working with you and your husband, I will literally like say, I will give you a stick and be like, Kimberly, you get to talk. Rob, you don't get to talk. Because we need to make sure that we're both fully present with her. You'll get your turn to talk, but right now it's on her. Because if we don't have those kinds of crutches, we will inevitably just jump in and we haven't taken the time to understand because we've got our own stuff bubbling up that we're trying to deal with.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

That's so good. I'm sitting. I love the visual, even just thought of you put the emotions over here for now. Like you've got to have the wherewithal and emotional self-awareness, like you said, to even understand that that's what's happening and what's coming up and being able to put it over here.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

And those are important. Like that may be some of your own work that you need to reflect on and process on or talk to a friend about, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

But in the moment, you've got to be in the moment. With the person. With the person.

oundaries With People Who Vent

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Do you think, switching context a little bit, do you think that a person can talk about their own stuff too much, though, to where they stay stuck in a cycle? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why we're all so hesitant to do this hard work, is because we've known the people that have gotten drowned in it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Over-identified with their pain, seem to you, you know. I hear a lot of language of, you know, some people get stuck playing the victim and all of that. That's true. Absolutely. There are people like that out there. And it doesn't mean that you can't be a friend of them and still listen really well, but it has boundaries, right? You listen to them for a time and then you move on with your life, right? You're not entitled to like no one is entitled to endless access to you, right? We are we're all limited. So we want to make sure we use our time and our energy well. So sure, absolutely that can be taken advantage of. And it's unfortunately something you have to watch out for.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

What about the people in your life that are just difficult? Not not even it's not even that they're difficult to listen to, but they are difficult because you can't seem to get through to them. You can't. I think I wrote something over here. The people who are closed off, like you know that they could use help or deeper work or like working through their stuff, but they're just super hesitant.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah. And some people are just very closed off. You know, maybe they kind of have avoidance tendencies, and you can't force somebody to do the work. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Can you encourage them to? You can encourage them to, but you can't force them to. What could encouraging someone to do it look like?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I think it would look like, you know what, you've got you do have challenges, you do have pain, and I don't think you have to be stuck there. I think there are resources for that. You can say things like that, right? You can lead a horse to water, you can't force him to drink. You can't force him to drink.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

What about though when that person not getting further help for themselves is directly impacting you?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, that happens.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

It does.

ocus On What You Control

SPEAKER_01 20:22

It does happen. That absolutely happens. Happens all the time at marriage helper. 100%. 100% every single day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard. That's where that's where you have to focus on the things that you do have control over, which oftentimes there are people in our lives that even people in our lives that we're really close to and whose decisions affect our life, we still can't force them to do what they're not ready to do. So we focus, it's very empowering to focus on the things that you can control, which is yourself.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Which parts of yourself do you believe are the most important ones to focus on?

SPEAKER_01 21:03

I think focusing on the things that keep you from showing up and being the person that you want to be. Right? I think I know maybe I shouldn't assume that it's like this for everyone, but I kind of have a movie in my head of the person I want to be. What my interactions would look like, how I would encourage people. And to the extent that I'm not measuring up to that, why is that? There's reasons for that. Probably has to do with my past experiences and my past trauma. So working on myself to get me to the point that I feel good about me and how I'm showing up.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Can you give us a real or imagined scenario of that? So what someone might be thinking of like, man, this is my dream way I want to show up, what their current reality is, and like practically what needs to change for them to get here to there.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yeah. Uh I see examples of this all the time. One recent example that I've seen is I was I'm working with a couple, I've worked with them a lot, and right off the bat, he was like, Oh, he and his wife are in a difficult spot. And he was like, Oh, I've forgiven her. Oh, I've forgiven her. And just today, he was telling a story about how, well, I can't, I can't get past what the things that we've been through. And I was like, could that be some forgiveness work? He's like, I just keep going back to what she was like in this certain time in this certain situation. And I was like, well, the only way forward is forward. So if you're stuck in the past, you've got to find a way to let go of that. You can't change the past, it's already happened. So that sounds like some forgiveness work. I am convinced, and this is his work, right? Like I can't force this, but I am convinced in this gentleman's case, if he could find a way to forgive, it's not just his wife, it's some stuff that went on in the extended family as well. But there are three or four key family members that if he could find a way to forgive, which I understand is easier said than done, but once he wants to do that, he'll figure it out, he is off to the races. But right now it's really bothering. Him down because he's hurt. And he's holding on to that.

oing The Work And Forgiveness

SPEAKER_02 23:32

What is it you've mentioned a couple of times like doing the work. Doing the work.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

What does that mean for people who maybe are just hearing that for the first time?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah. It's a great question because I do hear that a lot. And and I was slowing down recently to think long enough to try to think about what does that mean? And I think it is stopping long enough to take a look at those parts of yourself that are wounded and are affecting the way you show up in your life presently, keeping you from being the person that you want to be, which is hard. It can bring up shame. We naturally are inclined to avoid pain. Uh shame is real pain. So we'll avoid it. So we have to create safe places to look at those things that have happened and those parts of ourselves, parts of ourselves that feel wounded, that feel like there's a deficit there.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

And look at that, not for the purpose of hash rehashing the past, because you have to move on, right? You have to move on. But just long enough to do what you can do. All you can do is all you can do, as David Matthews says. And sometimes that just looks like acknowledging that that hurts. Uh writing a letter and asking for forgiveness, probably not sending the letter to the person. Um, because it's all about your own inner processes and closing out those things that feel unresolved.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Why would you recommend not sending the letter?

SPEAKER_01 25:14

There are some instances where it would be appropriate, but I think more times than not, it's just gonna open up some stuff that's hard to deal with. And it's it's almost forcing a family member to change in a way that they didn't ask for, and you have no indication that they're ready for. Interesting. And it's really about your own internal peace.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah. Yeah. That is, I mean, that's a concept we talk about several, we've talked about several times too, uh, at Marriage Helper, in terms of like, don't do things to calm your own anxiety or for like that are gonna just not end up being good for the relationship. Or and that's one that's honestly always, I mean, Joe and I have even gone back and forth about this somewhat, because he'll tell, he'll um, he'll use the example of like, if something happened 20 years ago and you've never told your spouse about it, well, why bring it up now if you don't feel guilty about it? And I think I always just go back to, well, I would feel guilty about it. Like I just know that might be the answer for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

If it's keeping you, and I I think I've even heard him say if it's if it's influencing the way that you're showing up for your spouse, then maybe you should tell.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Then maybe you should tell. Right. But it's also always been a difficult thing for me because the truth shall set you shall set you free. Like that's a Christian principle that I'm always like, well, then I always have to live in truth and should, or when I read, uh, you know, if there's if your brother has anything against you, you should go directly to them and work it out. And so there's been things like I haven't done, I haven't done this yet, but last year I've been processing for a couple of months now, like end of last year mostly, of like, man, I feel like there's been several people in my life that things didn't end the way I wanted them to with that relationship or whatever. And so I kind of have been wanting to go on like this apology tour, um, not like a literal tour, but like contacting several of those people and like talking it out. But I have if something keeps stopping me. There's a part of me that thinks it'll get it'll it's the right thing to do. I don't know why I feel like it's the right thing to do, but I'm just like, I feel like it's not a bad thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

I think it could be different too if you're asking for forgiveness versus seeking telling someone else that you forgive them. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah. Seeking for someone else to be safe.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Because I had it's interesting that you say that. I had a friend reach out to me over text, trying to remember when this happened, recently, in the last five years. And she said, Hey, I'm doing some sort of exercise. I'm doing an inventory of my life, and I'm at the part where I'm making amends. And I'm reaching out to people that I don't feel like I left on great terms with. And I don't feel good about where we left. This was a friend from college, and I hadn't seen her in 20 years. Wow. And she described some things that were going on in her life at that point that made her particularly vulnerable. And I knew about some of that stuff, but I was like, I thought back on it and I was like, you know, we didn't we didn't end particularly well. There were some difficult things that happened. And that's pretty cool that she reached out and wanted the benefit of just saying, Hey, I think I need to ask for your forgiveness. It wasn't anything that was keeping me up at night, but I was like, that does close out a loop for me. And that I was I had never had anybody reach out, I think, with that level of humility before. Was it a text? It was a text. Yeah, she lives in another state and everything.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

And you received it well. Yeah. I mean, I feel like she hit the jackpot sending it to you as well. I guess I feel like you're very personal.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

I think I was a little bit almost stunned because I don't know that I've ever had another experience like that before or since. But she really, I don't think, was wanting anything from me. Just like, hey, this will be a part of my, I'm seeking peace for myself.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Even if you hadn't responded at all or well to it, it was something she would have been happy that she had done. I mean, I know you can't know that, but it would be, it would maybe that's like the the barometer of this. Like if no matter how the other person responds, is this something I will be glad I did, regardless?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

That's it. That's it. This person doesn't owe me anything. I run into that a lot at Marriage Helper, where like a standing spouse will make this nice gesture towards their reluctant spouse, and then they're mad when they don't get a certain response. And I'm like, a gift is a gift, it means there's no strings attached. So if you can, in good faith, reach out and say, This is where I am, I need to ask for your forgiveness, and this will help me to feel better no matter the result, then I think that could be a good thing to do. I think it's the other way around where people run into trouble. And I I do think it can be different with spouses versus other relationships. In the private practice work that I do, I've dealt with several mothers who've got stuff going on with their adult daughters and several daughters that have stuff going on with their moms. And they feel like they're the offended party. And my answer for that in the in the instances that I've dealt with it is I I don't think you need to rehash this. I don't think you get to, I think you're gonna have to forgive and move on. And have boundaries, right? This person has shown you where they are, at least right now, doesn't mean they're never gonna change. But they've shown you where they are right now. And you may or may not have any idea of what's playing into that, but I don't think you can go and ask them to change and act like, hey, I can't be happy in life until you change in this way. Yeah. I've just not seen that go well. Right. Yeah. Spouses are harder, right? Because this is you, this is your literal teammate in life. So there probably needs to be a safe way to address the the perceived offenses there.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

What about when a friend comes to you and they are processing a big life decision? Like, I'm unhappy in my marriage, I want to leave. What should we do? Yeah. How can you be their therapist without being their therapist?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

That's really hard. I mean, most of the people that I am good enough friends with that they would come to me with that sort of thing. I I think I can trust them to say, tell me about you, you wouldn't, you wouldn't be process, you wouldn't be trying to come to terms with that decision unless there was a lot of pain. So I would say, tell me about that pain. And then I might, after I had listened good and well, I might say something along the lines of, what do you think this decision would get you if you were going to leave your spouse? How do you think you would benefit from that? How do you think that would be really hurtful and harmful? Right? I do think there's a this would have to be a good friend, right? But does that actually solve your problem? I don't know if I would ask that directly, but let's let's talk through this. Is this actually gonna get you to a better place or is it gonna create more pain?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

How do you do it without coming across like you should do what makes you happy?

SPEAKER_01 33:14

No, there is a lot of that. There is a lot of that. In the instances of that that I have in my life, both personally and professionally, usually the person who feels like they need to leave their spouse, if that's the example we're going with, usually feels like they've been abused or they've been taken advantage of. And that's really, really hard. Um, because you know, we don't want people to just sit there and tolerate mistreatment, right? If there's no change of heart. If it's persistent. I think people accuse other people of being abusive when yes, they were mean, but was it a pattern? Is it persistent? Is it unrepented? That's not always as clear. But if somebody really does feel like they're being mistreated, then that's hard. I mean, that's really hard. That's where and and you're not gonna come up with an answer in like one day, right? You're not gonna have a 30-minute conversation at Starbucks, and it's like we figured this out and we know what to do.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

But I think what can make things much better for people that are in that situation where they feel like their marriage is in such a bad spot that they might need to leave, is to have safe outlets for being seen and being heard. Their spouse probably isn't that person for them right now. That's the problem. So if they can have other people that they can attach to in a healthy way, it may actually help their marriage. Right? Because they have a safe place to be heard and they can get some perspective from someone who loves them and isn't telling them what to do, is trying to help them figure out what the wisest course of action is, but isn't trying to correct them.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

What phrases would you avoid?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Well, I mean, I'm I'm pretty triggered by the do whatever makes you happy. Now, part of that comes from my worldview where I think if we lead with what makes us happy, I don't think we're gonna be true to what we're called to do in life. Um so whatever makes you happy. I do think when people are in pain, we hear about this at Marriage Helper all the time. I think that people say, you don't deserve to be in that much pain. You don't deserve to be treated that way. I think that that can be said out of a place of genuine concern, but we we we don't really know. And deserve deserve is a word that makes me nervous anyway, because I do think we deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. Do we deserve to have a happy, healthy, problem-free life? I don't actually don't think we deserve that, right? I think we were actually promised that we would have a lot of trials. So I think anything that goes into to that realm makes me a little bit nervous. And that is informed by my own beliefs and values. So somebody, if your primary belief is I want to be happy and I deserve to be happy, then that would be a different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

And then we're back to the moral. Then we're back to the moral. What did you say? Yeah, couldn't confrontation, right? Because I I mean, yeah, same here. Do what makes you happy. If that's what someone was seeking and they were coming to meet, they probably wouldn't, I don't know, they probably wouldn't come to me for advice because they'd be like.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Don't do what makes you happy. Well, we do, I think, seek out, and I think sometimes it's subconscious, but we seek out who we think is just gonna validate what we were already gonna do. So I think a good friend can challenge you. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, right? I think that's a verbs.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

I saw a meme or whatever on Instagram, I think it was just last night, and it said me searching for the perfect friend to share this really petty situation with. And I'm like, I so got it. Cause it's like, yeah, there are some days where I'm like, who's the right one? Who is gonna definitely not confront me? Yeah, who can I vent to this about? And they'll be like, oh my gosh. And they will not call me on my BS, which isn't a good, which is not a good thing. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think that's hard when, especially for people who maybe do have that Christian background and belief where we want everyone to live in like Jesus' kingdom on earth here and now. And so we want people to experience like freedom and salvation and thing. And so when they're trying, when they might be making a decision that's we feel like is going to take them further away from that, that's the part where for me, I think it's so hard to just I have to learn how to listen better. Fix me, Meredith.

unknown 38:10

Fix me.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yeah. One thing that I would say is I think most of the time when we're approached by a friend who's feeling some sort of way and needs to be heard, it's not one of those big life-altering things. It's like, hey, my work is really hard and my boss doesn't understand me.

unknown 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

And or, you know, or I'm really struggling with, like, I had hoped to have another child by now and I can't get pregnant or whatever. Like these aren't moral things, but these are things that we try to jump in and correct. That's true. Right? Because if you if you listen, when the typical person says, Hey, my job isn't really working out right now and I'm really stressed, they will immediately get a bunch of advice. Like, oh, I can get you a referral at my work, and oh, well, did you ever do that? And this reminds me of that time that I didn't like my job. Instead of just being like, Oh gosh, that's really hard. Tell me about that. Not trying to correct it, just being there. Yeah, right. Um, what do you feel like is gonna be the next step for you, right? Because they are already inclined in a certain direction, right? And an example like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

And so they really are just needing somebody to validate, yes, that's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

No, there aren't any really clear answers. Yes, you have a hopeful future.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Right? All of those kinds of things. So occasionally there are these circumstances where there might be something moral where we need to confront. I don't, at least for me, in my personal friend group, that's not the day-to-day. Right. Or even like my husband will try to say something that frustrates him, and I'll think, well, that's not worth getting frustrated about. But it's frustrating to him, and it might just be like, you know, they don't, they haven't installed the street lights yet on our street or something. I'm like, yeah, first world problem, but if he's frustrated about that, he gets to be frustrated about that. Who am I to try to correct that emotion? Yeah. All I can do is just validate that yes, that's that's frustrating. Yeah. It's frustrating to turn into a dark neighborhood or whatever.

hatGPT For Therapy And What It Misses

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Yeah. What do you think about AI? AI. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Well, I have come to probably in the last six months or so, come to kind of depend on Chat GPT. I think it can be helpful. Um and I don't think AI will ever replace real human relationships. And I'm encouraged by that. What do you use Chat GPT for? It's basically my new Google. Yeah. So I use it for all kinds of things. But it's even before we started recording, I said I used it yesterday because somebody brought to my attention a bill that is up for a vote in the Tennessee state legislature. And I tried to read the bill, and it was a bunch of legalese that I did not understand. Yeah. And I asked ChatGPT to summarize for me what are the arguments for and against this bill. The bill is 40-something pages long. It's indiscernible to somebody like me without legal training. And ChatGPT gave what felt like a very helpful um kind of summation of why a person would be for or against this bill that affects my field. So that's helpful. You know, I don't have any friends that have read the 46-page bill or pros and cons. Right. Right. In terms of processing how the possible results of that bill could affect me and how that makes me feel. Chat GPT can't do that. I've got to do that with a real live person. Okay. However, though, people do try and use Chat GPT. And yeah, people do try to do that. And Chat GPT tries. It'll give me, it'll be like, what a great question. I'm so glad you asked that. Which is something a human would say, right? A human who's listening well.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah. ChatGPT is always there for you. It will always listen. It will always tell you what you want to hear. I'm so concerned about it.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah, but it feels empty, right? I agree. Like Chat GPT and I don't have shared history of things that we've done together and ways that we've grown together, not in our relationship.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

You will give it two years. No, I totally hear you.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah. Um, I've I've talked about this with other counselors because Chat GPT gives really good psychology advice.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

I had a client, and this has been probably a year ago, a marriage helper client that asked ChatGP uh GPT a question about how to save a marriage. And he copied and pasted the response to me, and it was really good. And it included things like, you know, like our stuff. As Kimberly Holmes says. Exactly. It only knows because of us. But he had collated some different sources, and it was actually really good. But I think people are always going to want a real live person to process through information is only information, and it's helpful. But what we're really called to is relationship.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

You're not nervous about the future of therapy and coaching.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

I'm really not. Maybe I'm I'm I'm listening to other people who are saying I think people are always going to want a real life human to talk to.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

And they're going to want the benefit of looking somebody else in the face. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Yeah. I hope so. Uh I asked yesterday on my social media, I did a bit of a poll, like a three-question poll. So my first question was, how many of you use AI? About 70% of people said that they used it. The second one, the second question I asked was, What do you use it for? And there was a lot of like home decor ideas, travel planning, um, budgets, things like that. But then there recipes. I use it for recipes. Recipes. Yeah. But then there were several that said, I use it for therapy.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

And then my third question was, which one do you use? And Chat GPT was the was the number one one. But I uh I'm just starting to see the trend of so there was someone who I saw on Facebook. This was a this is a very well-known person, and they were really down on themselves after a workout or something. And they went to Chat GPT and they typed in how they felt about themselves. And Chat GPT spit back out something that was like, This is your inner child talking, like this is what you need to remember, be confident. And this person posted this and was like, Chat GPT got it. Like, this is how I felt, this is what. Needed to hear. I sat there and cried when I read this response. And when I saw that post, I was like shocked.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Um, I and I think part of my shock was how many people are relying on Chat GPT for something like this.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

And what is that gonna do to human relationships? I don't it cannot replace a human relationship, but it's up at 2 a.m. It's not gonna judge you. Yeah, it's gonna like it doesn't have a bad day. It doesn't have a bad day, always available, low cost, and just low-hanging fruit of like how many people are just gonna start getting used to telling ChatGPT their like Chat GPT becoming their journal, but it talks back. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

And how much have we devalued our human relationships that like the the person you were talking about, like their first thought was, I need to ask Chat GPT about this because maybe he he or she didn't have a person that they could ask in that moment. Right. I think we have to protect ourselves. I think that's part of our work and how we care for ourselves in this time is making sure that we cultivate relationships and value relationships to the extent that because that would be a really good reason to reach out to a friend, like, oh, I'm leaving the gym and I don't feel good about myself. Right. That's one of those examples of a time that you could reach out to a friend and there wouldn't be, I don't think that's a highly consequential discussion in terms of morals, but like just to get encouragement from someone. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

100%. Because relationships are hard.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

And I think when we turn to something else to help us process things or help us feel value or whatever, it takes that beauty away from a relationship that could develop.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Relationships are rewarding partly because they cost you something. There's self-sacrifice involved, right? There's learning and growing together, which we're never gonna we're never gonna sacrifice on behalf of ChatGPT. It doesn't cost us a thing. Right? So I think that really devalues the role of Chat GPT when we haven't, it's not like we've struggled together, right? It's a very one-sided relationship because in like even in the example that you gave, that person is not gonna be like, you know what, ChatGPT, you're a great encourager. I just want to remind you that you were there for me when I needed you. Like it doesn't have that give and take of a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

I mean, in some ways, in some ways it does, because you teach it how to reply to you. So if you wanted it to keep doing stuff like that, you'd be like, yes, perfect answer. Or like, thank you so much. Because that's how it learns. Yeah. You and me and whatever.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah. But there's still not that like endurance and rigor and like we've stuck it out through the highs and the lows. Right. That I think come from exactly that that make relationships really rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

I think that it makes the feedback that Chat GPT gives you, me, like whoever's asking it, just um uh what's the word when something uh doesn't isn't worth anything. Uh not worthless. I mean, I guess because you use the word, but it makes it less. I do think that it devalues what it tells you. Because in my, like if it were to say something like that to me, in my, which it has in the past, like there have been times I've used Chat GPT a little more like that. And I get that feedback, and it's like, and when I first read it, I'm like, oh, like that is true about me. But then I'm like, wait a minute, it doesn't know me.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

And so then it's like it's filling a void, but it's not truly filling the void. It doesn't really know you. Because it doesn't really know me. Your people would, and it's not real. So it like cheapens it. It cheapens it, yeah. It cheapens that thing, yeah, that feedback. Whereas if like my husband had said that, it would be like, oh, that's like super meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Or well, and I remember hearing a preacher say years ago that like when you get towards the end of your life, and if you've been in a long marriage, whatever that looks like for you, and you evaluate that long term, what will amaze you is I never would have guessed the joys that we would see together and the trials that we have sustained together. We endured way more than I thought we ever could have. And we've seen way more joy and goodness than I ever would have imagined we could have. Right. That's only the kind of thing you can say when you've lived your life with people.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Right? I just don't see how you would get to the end of your life and say that about technology. There's no emotion, there's not two-way emotion.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Right. Right. So don't marry an AI. Number one.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Takeaway number one. And we could be headed there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Oh, yeah. Well, we won't get into that.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

That's another podcast.

ow We Want To Show Up

SPEAKER_02 51:07

That's another podcast. What would be um, as we wrap up, Meredith, I always love talking with you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I enjoy the conversations as well. Yeah, 100. I mean, I do too. I feel like I'm always learning things, taking notes, wanting to, wanting to have your like steady, grounded emotional processing power. That's what I try and gather and gain from you. Channel my inner meredith in those moments. What would you say for you is the way that you want to show up in your day-to-day life?

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Hmm. Um, I'm gonna borrow from the work of Carl Rogers. I took some notes on him. He says that good therapy is congruent. There's unconditional positive regard, and there's empathy. So congruence to me would just be authenticity. There's no gap between who I say I am and how I show up. So congruence, unconditional, positive regard. We've talked a lot about that in this interview. That's the non-judgmentalism. Just always assuming the best and then empathy, compassion. I like the word compassion even better than empathy.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

What are the things that you believe are important for you to do on a daily or weekly basis that help you continue to show up that way?

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah. I've got to have um I've got to have an outlet for my own stuff. So for me, that looks like prayer and prayer journaling. Uh, so that my sense of security is anchored outside of any other person. To me, that's the key. Uh my security is immovable because in my case, I would anchor that in God. So whatever kind of curve balls all these crazy humans out here throw me, I'm anchored there.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

And that is a daily, weekly practice of um staying connected to God. So for me, that would look like prayer and staying in the scripture, like keeping my mind guarded in those ways. Which is kind of the churchy answer, but sometimes the churchy answer has some legitimacy to it.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Sometimes there's a reason for it.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Right. I love that. That's great. That's a good daily habit encouragement for people, I believe, as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

I don't know about you, but I always love my conversations with Meredith because she's just so grounded. And I learn from her every time that we talk. Here are my takeaways that I took for myself from today's episode. First of all, everything is endurable. When we take that mindset into our own situations as well as situations that are happening with our family and friends, I believe it can help us to see the future for them, see hope in situations that are hopeless. Things aren't always easy, but everything is endurable. You will make it through to the other side and you will see that you are stronger than you thought you were. Secondly, I loved this visual image of when you're talking with someone and the emotions start to stir in you, whatever those are, mentally thinking about putting them over here, putting them to the side, putting them where they're just like in a bucket over next to you, so that you can stay focused on the person who's talking with you. Not letting those emotions fix, try and fix things, or letting those emotions affect you and your ability to be present with this other person in the moment. That's where so many situations get off track because we begin to make it about us, we begin to get defensive, we begin to think that this person's making the wrong decision, we start getting riled up, we respond to them out of our emotions, but they just want to be heard. Feeling heard is the closest thing to feeling loved. How can we listen to the people in our lives even more? And then, third and finally, I love how we ask this question at the end of every episode. What is the way that you want to show up? And what are the things that you're doing that can help you show up that way? I want you to think about those this week. How do you want to show up? How do you want to show up when your friend is coming to you asking you for advice, venting to you about their issues? How is it you want to show up? And what is it that you need to do now so that you can show up in that way that you want to? Until next week, stay strong.