Did Jesus Really Raise From The Dead?

Did Jesus Really Raise From The Dead?

If Jesus didn't raise from the dead, then nothing else in the Bible really matters. That's not just my opinion. That's what the Bible says about itself. So can we actually trust that the resurrection happened? That's the question I've been wanting to explore for years.

In this episode, I sit down with one of my pastors, Cory Shumate, to walk through the logical case for the resurrection. Cory breaks it down in a way that doesn't require you to be a biblical scholar. We look at the four main theories people use to argue against the resurrection and why each one falls apart, and then we walk through the four key facts that point to the resurrection being true.

In this episode, we cover: Why the resurrection is the foundation of the entire Christian faith, the mass hallucination theory and why it doesn't hold up, the legendary development theory and why there wasn't enough time for myths to form, the swoon theory and why Jesus couldn't have survived the cross, the stolen body theory and why none of the three versions of it make sense, the four facts that make the resurrection the most logical explanation, why the women being the first witnesses actually strengthens the case, extra biblical sources that confirm Jesus was crucified, why not everyone believes even when the evidence is compelling, Cory's personal story of going from atheism to faith, and why walking past the hard questions actually makes your faith weaker.

Cory Shumate is a pastor whose faith journey began as an atheist in high school. His willingness to wrestle with doubt and ask hard questions is one of the things I admire most about him.

📖 Book mentioned: Risen Indeed by Gary Habermas 📖 Also referenced: The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel

Whether you are a Christian looking for more confidence in what you believe or someone who's just curious and exploring, I hope this conversation gives you something to sit with. If you want to keep learning, I recommend checking out the Bible Project on YouTube for an approachable breakdown of what the Bible actually says.

If this encouraged you, share it with someone who might be wrestling with these same questions.

I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.

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Transcript

Why The Resurrection Matters

SPEAKER_03 1:28

If Jesus didn't raise from the dead, then nothing else really matters, especially when it comes to the things that I believe. I've been wanting to have this conversation for years. So I am so excited to sit down with one of my pastors, Corey Schumate, and talk about the reasons, or are there any reasons that we can trust the resurrection? Did it actually happen? That's what we're going to discuss in today's episode. Let's dive in. Corey, I have been wanting to have this conversation for a couple of years now about the resurrection. So I'm just going to dive in it right here. Did Jesus actually raise from the dead?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

I think so. We've also been talking about this for two, this this podcast for two years. So I think you asked me two years ago.

unknown 2:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

And then you're like, and then like it'll happen. And then I was like, You're right. I was like, she must not trust me after getting to know me. She's like, hey, podcast. And then she got to know me and she's like, not that guy. I thought for sure you'd you're like, I found somebody else to do a better job. Which I wouldn't blame you for that. No, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Not at all. I was just always wanting to time it around Easter because, you know, seems fitting.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Seems fitting. True.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

But did he? Like, do you do you how much do you believe that Jesus actually raised from the dead?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah. Yeah. I I believe I believe it wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Do you ever doubt it?

Christianity Rises Or Falls Here

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Do I ever doubt that Jesus was mad? That's an interesting one. I have all sorts of doubts. Um that that doesn't tend to be one of them. And we'll get into this, but I I I think that there's actually a really good, because there's a lot of there's a lot of questions around like, hey, what about errors in the Bible? And what about this matching with this? And you can get kind of tripped up in your own head about, okay, okay, that that's got some traction. That's got me thinking. The the resurrection account is oddly like more of a logical argument than anything, which I think makes it sort of uniquely accessible to the average person in a way that, like, if you say, What about this part in the Bible and it says this? And how does it agree with this other part? You almost have to be a biblical scholar to like peel back. Okay, how do those things agree with each other? I think with the resurrection, it is it is uniquely uh a logical thing, which means you can have a conversation with somebody about it with just a few facts, not a ton. And uh, if you agree on those few facts, then I think it sort of comes together in a logical way that doesn't require you to be an expert.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Okay. Tell me. Let's say I know nothing about it, which maybe I don't. Yes. You may you're probably gonna share something brand new. Sure. How would you explain to me about the resurrection in a way that's logical?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I was thinking so I'm not an expert in this area either. So it's you know, I just want to say you invited me on and I was like, you're gonna regret this. So we'll see where we'll see where it takes us. Uh let me start by saying that like this is a really, really fundamental question. You said a couple minutes ago, I think before we hit record on this. Uh if this is not true, then what'd you say? It all the Bible doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Um, and what's really interesting is that that's not an opinion that you have. That's actually something that the Bible says about itself. Right. So 1 Corinthians 15 is kind of like the resurrection chapter. It's written by Paul. Uh and he uh I wrote it down coming in today. He said, If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless, and so is your faith. It's a crazy thing for the Bible to say. It is. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, you are still in your sins. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people to be most pitied. Pitied. So it's I think it's a unique thing for a religion to say about itself. Here's the linchpin. And if you remove this, the whole thing comes falling apart. And Paul's a preacher, he says, then my my preaching is in vain.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

And he didn't see he did not see Jesus die and then raise from the dead.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

So even for him to say it for him. And he didn't see it.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Not only did he not see it, he was a persecutor of those who did. You're right. He jailed and arguably killed Christians who believe this and had such a radically transformative experience that he followed, began following this risen King Jesus suddenly. So I think that's important to name because there's other, like in Islam, if you say Muhammad never lived, Islam can still stand. The five pillars can still be true. If you have, you know, uh Siddhartha Gautama, the uh Buddha, right? If he never never lived, his life never happened. That doesn't do anything to Buddhism. The truths of Buddhism kind of foundations can still stand. That is not true of Jesus. Not only is it necessary for the person of Jesus to have lived uh and died, but also to have been raised from the dead. And if any of those are not true, then the whole thing comes crashing down. Yeah. And C.S. Lewis, if if you maybe heard him say this, like he says, Christianity is either of utmost importance or it's of no port uh importance at all. But the one thing that it cannot be is moderately important. Yeah, and I think it all rises and falls on the resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

All of it.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

All of it. So says Paul.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

So how true true. So says Paul.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

And I think a lot of Christians, that is, as you said, the linchpin. So how how can we, how can you believe it? How do you know it to be true?

Four Alternative Theories Introduced

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah. Yeah. Uh so I was just thinking about this today. I this is a great conversation because I've never actually had a full conversation about like kind of from A to Z, how does this work? I've had kind of one-offs. What about this? What about this? So this is gonna be new for me. This is fun, and I'm excited for your brain to be part of it. I think one of the most helpful ways to think about this is to look at actually the the theories against the resurrection and kind of weigh them.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

So so there are a couple kind of fringe theories out there. There's like a mass hallucination. No, that that's actually uh one of the one of the more substantive. Uh, really? Yeah, yeah. So there's even more fringe theories. Like Jesus had an identical twin that somehow like, oh my gosh, I saw this on ready. And that's where you'll see you will not see this theory uh proposed by people who are serious scholars, but yeah, it's like, hey, uh Jesus died, and then he had a uh a twin that basically took up the mantle and uh and carried it forward. It's like it's odd. There's very few people are claiming that there's a lot of mental gymnastics. There's the wrong tomb theory, which is like oh, they forgot Jesus and then they went to the other tomb and there's it's empty, and they're like, oh my gosh. Which is for layers and layers, we'll kind of get into that kind of crazy thinking. Okay. But there are there are, so far as I can tell, uh four uh kind of main theories, alternative theories. And then I at the end we'll talk about, I think, four. And you really only need four uh facts that add up to the resurrection. Okay. So four and four.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Four and four. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

I'm a preacher, so I have to like organize my thoughts in some ways. No. Didn't have enough time for that. Maybe we can make one up as we go.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

I I can I do love an acronym.

The Mass Hallucination Claim

SPEAKER_00 8:37

So you mentioned the hallucination theory. Yes. Uh so that is do you want to explain what what you've done?

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Here's what I know. Here's what I know. Because I read this book. So what what you and I were talking about before we hit record was I got really into this a couple of years ago when I was in a business group where I was the only Christian, which was new territory for me. And my and the chair of this of this group really started asking me a lot of questions about it. So I read this book called Risen Indeed by Gary Hubermis. You'll totally understand this when I say it. He actually wrote his PhD in this. So it's actually his dissertation that I that I read. Is the book. Is the book. Okay. But he was setting out to refute that Jesus raised from the dead because he was so mad.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

His wife had been killed. He had previously been a Christian. He decided he didn't believe this anymore. So he specifically said, I'm gonna prove this wrong and do all the research to show how it didn't happen. So kind of like a Lee Strobel story. I know. It's like it's kind of like a next level Lee Strobel.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, because he was a journalist who said it out.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

But for this guy, and this guy was getting his PhD.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

It was more personal, though.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah. More yeah, a little bit more personal. So and I can't remember all of them now, but I do remember there was this mass hallucination theory. So what if the 500 people who say that they all because I should have prepared for this. There's one of the in one of the gospels, or maybe it's an Acts, it says that 500 people saw him.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

All right, it's about 1 Corinthians. 500.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

500. And so the idea was, well, all of them must have been on some kind of drug, or they all hallucinate, which apparently is a thing that people can mass hallucinate. But he refuted that. I can't remember how he refuted it.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

So uh mass hallucinations. There's of course people who hallucinate, there are m masses of people who hallucinate at the same time because they're on the same drug. Uh you'd be really hard-pressed to find a large group of people, especially as large as 500 that are all hallucinating at the same time about the exact same thing. Right. That's the trippy part. If if if uh 500 people were to go on acid, you know, right now, and you'd be like, describe your experience, you are almost certainly going to get 500 very different experiences, let alone you know, all 500 in agreement. So that's that's a big individuals hallucinate, uh mass groups do not hallucinate about the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Aaron Ross Powell So why do people consider that an a valid odds?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

It's it's an odd one. I I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

It it feels like a reach. More than that, though, even if you had, let's say, let's say it's true that those 500 people absolutely hallucinated about the same risen Jesus at the same time, which there's not a lot of grounds for why that why they would do that. Why those 500 people, you know, like what And to what end? And to what end? So there's that question too. The other thing is we were told that Jesus appeared to not just those 500, but men, uh, women, couples, small groups, indoors, outdoors, in different places over the course of a 40-day period between his resurrection and then his ascension. So this is not just a group of people who said, We saw it and let's all kind of get our story straight and then you know report this. This is him appearing to in a bunch of different places. That is one of the most compelling. You'll see that kind of thread come come back again and again. But that is one of the most compelling arguments against the uh alternative theories of the resurrection, because he not only do you have to contend with the empty tomb, you have to contend with a an an appearing Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

So for those reasons, I don't think I think the uh the oh and and lastly, all all Rome would have to do, if that's true. 500 people rise, or who whoever's saying, Oh my gosh, there's a risen Jesus, we all saw it. What would Rome have to do? Kill him again. Oh no, no, open the tomb.

unknown 12:24

Or that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Open the tomb. Show there he is, you know, ta-da. Uh that that's all you need to do to debunk something like hallucinations. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Okay. So let's talk about the stolen body.

Did The Story Grow Into Legend

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Stolen body. Okay. We'll get to that. I have a second. So second one is uh what they call the legendary development theory. This is that um maybe a little bit more credence. This is the idea that uh Jesus died, he did not raise from the dead, but he had a he had a uh big personality, a big following. Yeah. Um and then over time, there's sort of this. Oh people just exaggeration, embellishment of the stories. And so, of course, a couple thousand years later, we have this guy who, you know, Jewish rabbi who was compelling and controversial at the time. And so uh how how not how better what better way to cement his legacy in history than to say, oh, this dude died and rose from the the grave, you know, and we worship him as God. So it makes sense on a kind of far away logical level. Um the reality is th it's just not true. There's no evidence for that. And there's a lot of evidence to to the contrary. And so all four gospel accounts, we we we think of them as, oh, those are like biased scripture accounts. And admittedly, there are people who are close to Jesus. Uh, but they are also, we can't forget, historical accounts. They are biographies of of the life of Jesus. Um, all four of them were written within uh decades of Jesus' death, uh meaning that there were eyewitness accounts who were still very much alive uh and and they're to contest if what those four accounts and people around that time were saying about this risen guy. They'd have to say, nope. And it wouldn't have gotten credibility. Uh the second thing is like uh early outside of the gospels, early creeds, Paul, we talked about the first Corinthians 15 resurrection chapter, he says, I'm passing on to you what I received as of first importance. Uh first first Corinthians was written within about a decade of Jesus' death. And if he's receiving if he's receiving that news and saying, I'm passing on you, because we know that Paul Paul wasn't amongst the first believers. Right exactly. Right. There was a time when he was persecuting Christians. Yeah.

unknown 14:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

And then he came to faith, and then he then he started writing. So so that means that if he's saying ten ten years later, if to 15 years later, he's receiving something, then we know there's a gap in his story, then there is news of Jesus' resurrection very, very shortly after his death.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Uh the third is that uh Christianity exploded within months and years after the Jesus' death. And so it is not as if it was a small pocket. And so you have to do something with that. Why is it that this guy was dead and then all of a sudden there are thousands and then quickly tens of thousands, and within a couple centuries, hundreds of thousands of people worshiping this guy as God has risen? How what do you make of that? That there's not time essentially for for enough time to go by for then that history to be so old that people are gonna make up lies because it was too far ago for people to remember the truth. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Yeah, it does make sense.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah. And then of course there's extra biblical sources. So there's like Josephus and Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. There are these people outside the Bible who have no, in fact, they wrote antagonistically against Christians. These are not Christians. They're saying this kind of cult around Jesus is a bit of a nuisance uh and and and and a and a wonder. Like it's confusing why people would believe this uh nonsense. They too attest that Jesus was crucified and that there's this group of people who are who are following him and believe that he is a risen king, and all of that was it within the first century after Jesus' death. So not enough time for legends to develop. So that's kind of the second main theory that people uh it's Jesus was a long time ago from our vantage point. It was not a long time ago for people who were writing about it, whose accounts we have access to today.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

You mentioned the gospels being biased. Historical. No, you didn't say biased, historical accounts of Jesus. So how how do we know we can trust the gospels and how they're written? And are they the same as what they were written as initially? Yeah. Has anything been changed?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah. Uh so there is a fair case to be made for these were men who uh were close with Jesus and wanted to believe the things that they were writing. The biggest problem, this is why I say it's a logical argument, you don't have to like do a bunch of gymnastics. If you have four gospels, and it took a lot to like compile something of this nature, that that are they're saying, here's what happened, and they're being released within decades, these eyewitnesses. Um especially if you have a guy like Luke who's being commissioned by Theophilus to uh go, and he was, you know, he basically sponsored to go in and interview eyewitnesses. Theophilus, Theophilus was interested in the truth. Luke was a doctor interested in the truth. And so he's interviewing and saying, Hey, this is a compilation of my interview. It's it's a just journalism, is what it is. So you have that, but then more than that is if these are put out there, they just simply wouldn't get any traction if they were just false. You'd say, No, there's the body in the tomb, or there's the people who said this never happened, and and it would be a very nice story, but it wouldn't have gotten any religious fervor. You have to remember these people then died for this. As far as we can tell, all of the you know, uh apostles and and many disciples were martyred for their faith.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

And so you you might make up a lie. Are you gonna die for a lie?

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

And more than that, are are are 100% of the apostles gonna die for a lie? That's the real thing that we have to contend with.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Yeah, exactly. That and that was I do remember, I do remember that when I was studying it a couple of years ago, was but why would so many people give their life for it if it weren't true? Right. Or even yeah, which is which is valid, unless they were all also crazy.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

You can make the argument you can continue to just say that.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I mean the logic is so intricate and very logical, you know, in in many ways. Uh very true. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Very true.

The Swoon Theory Tested

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Third theory. Third. It's called a swoon theory.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Swoon theory. The stolen body theory.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

That's next. This is a swoon. That's not even. The swoon theory is that Jesus didn't actually die.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Oh, so he's up like he was crucified. He was up on the cross.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

There's a reason we have an empty grave. It's because he got up and walked away. Because he didn't walked out of it.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

See, I have I have wondered this.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

You have wondered this?

SPEAKER_03 18:48

I have wondered this.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

How do we know he was dead when he was put in the tomb?

SPEAKER_00 18:52

How do we know he's dead?

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Because they didn't pierce his heart.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Of course, we weren't there, but we Yeah, we weren't there. So you know, can can we know with 100% certainty? No. But the the gymnastics, to use your word, of how you'd have to get to him are are quite extensive. So uh first of all, uh nobody actually claims this. This is a modern invention. The swing theory? Yeah. That he didn't actually die. Really? 100%. If you look at this, the disciples didn't say I mean, the disciples didn't expect, you have to remember that that that Jesus, when Peter, when Jesus said, Hey Peter, I'm gonna die, they tell his disciple. Peter's like, no, no, no. He rebukes him. And then there's a whole get behind me Satan moment, right? Yeah. The disciples did not want Jesus to die. Right. If there was one opportunity to say, Rome couldn't kill him, this was it, right? To to latch onto he he was actually uh he actually overcame the cross, not through resurrection, but through just being so strong that you can't kill him. That's a pretty compelling narrative.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

That was a compelling narrative.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

That they didn't say that. Not only that, but uh again, outside the Bible, we we just covered this. You got the Josephus and Tacitus and Pliny and whatever, they all said Jesus was crucified by Rome and died. There's not a hint in the historical record, even outside the Bible, inside the Bible or outside the Bible, that Jesus didn't die. So you have to go, okay, we are so totally imposing a theory on this that no account of history actually said. Even in Islam, they don't believe that Jesus was actually crucified. They believe that he was, you know, his spirit left him before he died on the cross. But even those who don't believe what we believe would say that guy, that guy died on the cross. Uh, the soldiers, they're professional killers. You have to remember it is their job to make sure that these people are dead. And you've got this fascinating account right at the end of, I think it's uh John, that uh it might might be Matthew. They went to each of I think it's Matthew, Matthew 27, they went to each of the three that were on the cross. Uh the two criminals that were next to Jesus, they broke their legs to speed up because it was like almost, you know, it was it was uh almost preparation day, and they they said, Hey, we can't be doing this this crucifixion business on the Sabbath kind of thing. And so they went and broke the legs to speed up their death. So they were not dead. Criminal one, two, not dead. They come to Jesus and they said, But we don't even need to break his legs, he's dead.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Which ended up fulfilling a prophecy.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Uh but aside from those, some some people don't care about prophecy, right? So say, okay. Um but what did they do? They still scourged him. And uh out of his side came a flow of blood and water, which said that there was a lot of inflammation and whatever. Those who kind of know the heart and the anatomy better than I do would say that that was like you don't survive something like that. Uh so aside from the fact that professional killers deemed him to be dead, they went the extra measure of scourging him. By the by the way, this is after being arrested, beaten, flogged, bled out, hours on the cross.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Okay. Nails, the whole bit.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And then you have the this is later that day, then Joseph of Arimathea said, Hey, can I have the body to go bury it? So then more some time longer went by. Then then Joseph took it, and then they him and Nicodemus, they wrap the body in his spices and linens and whatever, prepare it for burial. So there's more time that goes by. And there, if anybody's gonna be like, Oh, he's not actually dead, it's there's them, right? Yeah. And then they put him in a tomb and he's there for two nights, Friday night and Saturday night, with no medical attention in the dark. So even if by some chance this guy was not actually dead and he like roused or whatever, are you going to survive two nights in a t in a cold, dark, empty tomb with no medical attention? And more than that, Sunday morning comes, and what who's who's still there? The guards are still there.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

The tomb is the the stone is, are you saying that Jesus in that state, after all of that, with no medical attention, got up, moved the stone himself somehow, overcame the Roman guards who are there precisely to prevent something like this from happening. Their job was to keep that body in the tomb. And then, not only that, without a nap, the guy gets up and starts doing ministry. You know, he appears to Mary and then John and Peter and then goes to other disciples, and he's he's hanging out. This is not a guy who's in desperate need of medical attention.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yeah, and the accounts in the Bible, they don't see him and freak out because of all how bloody he is.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah, they're not like, oh my gosh, you need help. You're right. He's just he's just bouncing around, he's doing great.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

So all of that, aside again, but to back go back to what I said, nobody claims this is true. Not only does nobody complain it to be true, but it that it would be so far fetched you'd have to call it faith to believe that this this is true.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Yeah. Cause if he were able to move the stone and so then people then he would have to have God like power to do that anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Which Yeah. Do you see uh as mentioned, do you see how you don't have to be an expert in this to just piece it together and go, that's a crazy idea.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah, but I can see how if someone is really dead set on not believing it, they can convince it.

Who Could Have Moved The Body

SPEAKER_00 23:47

But you have to have a convinced presupposition that that it didn't happen and not be weighing the evidence. That is true. Are you ready for number four? I'm you've been waiting for the starting. They moved the body. Yes, they've stolen or moved. Stolen, stolen or moved. Okay, so there's three kind of uh ways this could happen. This is arguab arguably the most likely, right? Because you have a dead body and then you have an empty tomb. So so this is probably where And then no one can find the dead body. And then no one can find it. Okay. So this is either Jewish or Roman authorities uh moved the body for some sort of practical reason. Uh grave robbers stole the body. Uh or the disciples removed the body and then fabricated the story. Okay. Um so uh one by one, Jewish or Roman authorities relocated the body for practical reasons. Again, no record of this at all. It's something we're totally imposing. It's not anywhere in the story. Uh the tomb, uh uh uh there was not an apparent reason why they would need to uh move this. Uh so like why why would they go to the trouble of saying, oh, we have a buried body and now we need to relocate him. They you have to remember, Pilot put guards around the tomb. And there's this very interesting, they they put a seal around it, which doesn't necessarily mean like a um wasn't a secure wasn't a physical security measure and that like it's harder to move it. It was a seal, like a signet kind of a thing. It was an extra sign to say if you go in here, not only are you uh grave robbing, which is already a crime, but you but it was it was pilot's extra, like you this is a now a h high high-handed, high-level crime that you're committing. Okay. Um so so there was there was like these structures built around this tomb to say this is we're not gonna tamper with this. So it'd only have worked against Rome to like tamper with the body at that point in time because there was this, you know, that's why the guard was there. He this guy said that he was gonna raise from the dead. And so let's put put a guard there until the until the third day is what uh the gospels say. Until the third day to make sure to guard this key window of time, to make sure that that body stays put. So there's no reason why uh Rome, and again, go back to all this is true of this whole theory. All Rome would have had to do would be to produced, produce the body if indeed they moved it. Okay. They moved it and they said, No, it's in this grave instead. Here it is. Uh grave robbers. Uh grave robbery was somewhat common, right, at the time. And the reason people would rave rob graves is not to uh get the body back, but to get the valuable things that were buried along with the body. And very interestingly, we have uh it uh said in John that John, uh the Nicodemus and Joseph of Aermathea wrapped the body with linens and spices. There were 75 pounds of uh myrrh and aloes, 75 pounds. I actually did the research on this in preparation for this. I was like, how much, how much is that in dollars? The estimates vary, but anywhere between$50,000 and$200,000 in today's money. Okay? That's a lot. Yeah, it also weighs a lot. It also weighs a lot 75 pounds. Yeah, that's rucking right there. That's on the way on the way to the tomb. And so uh we have to ask then, what would the grave robbers be interested in taking if they were going to rob the grave? The answer is not the body. You don't take the you you take the the spices that are embedded in the linens. That's where the value was. If you know the Easter story, what's gone from the tomb? The body. The body. What's left in the tomb? The linens. The linens. So the very thing that held the most value is actually this exactly the thing that was left behind. So there's very little to say that like some somebody who's in it for financial incentive, non-disciples, would have uh moved the body. And then, of course, you get to the disciples stealing the body. And there's all sorts of problems with this. Number one, that they uh didn't expect Jesus to raise from the dead. Again, this is really core. This is not expected, even though Jesus was clear about it, even after he raised from the dead, they still weren't getting it. Mary is sad in in John's gospel when the tomb's empty. She sees the angel and she says, They've taken, they have taken the body, and I don't know where they they've taken him. She sees Jesus, mistakes him for the gardener, and says, Have you taken the body? Just show me where it is so that I can go get him back.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Why do you think she didn't recognize him?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

That's a whole interesting side side conversation. Um the disciples again would have had it to subdue the Roman guards. That's the whole point, is there was a conspiracy on the table of these guys are interested in this Messiah. He said he was gonna raise on the third day. Oddly, even though the disciples weren't cute cued into this, the chief priests were very much, and they wanted to say, we need to get to the third day, because that's when he said it would happen. And so there's a lot of attention from the chief priests and Pilate to say we need to make sure that thing is secure. And so you're gonna say the disciples overcame the profession again, professional Roman guards who sealed the tomb, you know. Uh, and again, uh, maybe uh most important is uh these people died for this. It goes back to the conversation we already had. Do you steal a body and then say he raised from the dead and then have universal martyrdom for those who are closest with Jesus? It just doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah, especially the way that a lot of them were killed too.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

More than any of that, again, this is where it all fits together. The post-resurrection appearances are critical. It's not just an empty tomb. It is the fact that he appeared to lots and lots of people afterwards. If we just had it, then there might be some semblance of okay, all those things could happen, but that's just not the case. He showed up to a lot of people afterwards. Those are the four.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Those are the four.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yep.

Why The Resurrection Takes Three Days

SPEAKER_03 29:13

And then what are the four? Well, actually, before we get into that, yeah. Why three days?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Like, why not? Because what why not a week? Why not a month? Yeah. Why three days?

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah. Um you've probably heard of like English graves having a bell on top of them. Have you seen this? It's wild. There was enough like people being buried before they were actually dead, in like, I don't know when this would have been hundreds of years ago. Yeah. Uh like mistaken, like apparently morticians and whatever they were not good at their job. So they would unbox people and then they would find like scratch marks on the inside of their coffins and be like, oh my god, our bad. Joe was still alive. So uh so they end up putting like bells on on the insides of coffins so that people could reach for a string and it would be attached to a bell, uh like a string that would go up to a bell on the surface. And they'd literally be like bells ringing, you know, on on the surface. Okay. But again, you're gonna like that's that's gonna be something that you you know, you're gonna hear that bell ring in short order after that thing's buried, because otherwise you're gonna suffocate and and and die anyway. Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

All that to say, there there was a belief, uh this is maybe where I'm getting a little bit out of my league, but so far as I can tell, um there was a belief in in uh Jewish you know culture that like the spirit would hang around the body uh for for a couple days. And so it was like Friday, maybe the spirit's still there. Saturday, maybe the spirit's still there. Uh but by the time Sunday rolls around, the guy's dead, dead. Even even if this like kind of superstitious, uh it's not scripture, but like, hey, maybe the spirit might come back and and re-vivify this person so that they they can come back to life. So by by arriving at Sunday, it's sort of like it's done. Uh that's my best understanding, is Jesus said, I it um past past the time when uh even your categories of superstition could have still allowed me to it's the swim theory to come back.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, I think.

unknown 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Yeah. I think it's really interesting something you said about the thing that was most valuable in the eyes of the world was the thing left behind. I don't know that really stuck with me. Yeah. And it was him that was gone, but he was actually the most valuable thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

And how insane is it sometimes? I mean, I'm totally like, I just really got caught there. Now I'm thinking like, how often do we focus on the thing that is so worldly important to us and like leave behind what God wants us to do?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

You're preaching now.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Like what Jesus actually wants us to do. Um I think there needs to be like a whole sermon just on what was left in the grave. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

There's like you can have all this world.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

But give me Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Give me Jesus.

unknown 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

I love that song.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah.

Four Core Facts That Remain

SPEAKER_03 32:06

That's such a good one. Okay. What are the four? So, I mean, we kind of embedded some of them there, but I pretty much covered all of them. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

But if you want to like sit down and somebody comes to you and that's that coffee that that guy had with you, what are the four like why should I believe aside from the kind of debunking, which I think is helpful to walk through, there's four things. Uh Jesus died, the tomb was empty, he appeared after, and then Christianity exploded. Those four things are really all you need to know. If those are true, then I think it's pretty said and done. Somebody would have a very, very hard time explaining all four of those things aside from the resurrection. So Jesus died. This goes fast, right? We talked about the professional killers, these soldiers. Spear in aside after flogging and crucifixion and being beat and what hanging hours on the cross. Uh there's nobody who survives that kind of thing. Um and then two nights in a tomb, no medical attention. More than that, it wasn't a Jewish expectation that for this guy to rise. Jews did have a category for resurrection, but it was for everybody at the end of the age. It was never for one person in the middle of history. This is why you get into the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, the Pharisees did, the Pharisees did not believe in this kind of resurrection. And that's why the that's why the disciples are rebuking him because they go, if you die, it's done. We're not going to see you again until the final resurrection. That's why, even when he died, and even when he said, I will rise again, they did not understand that it was going to happen soon. At best, they were thinking we'll see this guy at the end of the age. The Bible says Jesus died, history says he died. Nobody says Jesus didn't actually die. So if that's true, Texas number two, the tomb was empty. So he he was buried. Joseph Arimathea donated a tomb, wrapped the body. Uh it's not just a biblical account. You have Rome guarding the tomb with soldiers and a seal. It was a very politicized thing. Jesus was politicized during his life. That's why he was crucified. So it's the chief priests coming to Pilate. And very interestingly, you have them saying, We don't want people to, we don't want the disciples to come steal his body. So it's there in the gospels. That whole theory of grave robbery or of the disciples taking, it's right there. They're actually the reason there was guards there is not because Pilate instigated, but because the chief priest said, We don't want this rumor to actually come true. And so set up a guard. Um so uh it was an early attestation. This is not later added in history. Um, again, no Jewish category for a risen Messiah. Um, there's all sorts of like uh truth vibes, I'll call it, to this story, too. There's there's details to this that you would not include if you were writing this as a hero's tale. You've got Peter swearing his allegiance and abandoning Jesus during his trial. Uh the the disciples just scattering him when he's uh arrested. Uh the women, uh, you probably heard this one as first witnesses, not just of the empty tomb, but of Jesus' resurrection. So it's Mary who goes and tells John and Peter the tomb is empty. And she's sad about it. And then she then again she is the first person to see Jesus. She mistakes him for the gardener, but she's and she's uh he says, Why are you weeping? And then Jesus commissions her to go and tell the rest of the disciples that he's been raised. You you don't in that time empower a woman with that kind of news because their testimony was not even admissible in court. They were they were not seen as reliable witnesses. For something as momentous as the resurrection, you don't add that detail in unless it's true. It only takes away from the narrative. Uh the disciples didn't understand. Again, Mary was confused, she was sad when she saw the empty tomb, not happy. John went in and saw the empty tomb, he believed, but then he says, in his own gospel, writing about his own encounter in the tomb, he still did not understand that this was to fill the fulfill the scriptures that Jesus raised from the dead. Uh then you've got uh Thomas's disbelief, of course, famously saying, I won't believe until I am able to touch touch his wounds, whatever. And then Jesus offers. Uh and then the wounds also remaining in Jesus' hands and his side. Those aren't details that you'd include if he was resurrected. If you're gonna say the dude is resurrected in a glorified body, what are you gonna say? You're gonna say he's perfect. Yeah. So those are details that again only would go, uh, they'd cast it out. If you're gonna write this, you don't write it that way. Um so if you look at all of that, it this is a story that kind of like uh smells of reality, of a true story, because it has these things baked in that aren't perfectly clean and crisp and polished. Make sense? So Jesus died. Um the tomb was actually empty, and then he actually appeared. So uh we're told eleven times Jesus appeared on different occasions over a 40-day span to different people, men, women, individuals, couples, groups. He ate fish. He invited people to touch his womb. So this isn't just a uh a ghost that people were seeing. It was a physical Jesus who was physically interacting with uh these people. Um and again, nobody expected that Jesus would rise from the dead. Um, all of them knew this Jesus before he died, and so they were able to recognize him when he came back. They said, This is the Jesus that we followed. And fourth and finally, uh, and and equally as important, the very place that Jesus was crucified was the place where Christianity was born and exploded. You have these disciples who did not believe hours before, completely changing their belief system. You have Jesus' own brother, James, going from calling Jesus crazy, being nowhere to be seen at his crucifixion, to then interacting with his resurrected brother and the early church and becoming a leader in the early church. You know, we joke about it, but it's like, what would your brother have to do to convince you that he was God? A lot. A whole ton. But again, that's like, of course, his brothers didn't believe, and then of course they did. Like uh if this is true, then then their lives are changed. Uh the martyrdom uh of the disciples as as a concrete testimony that these people actually believe this. And then the very town in which Jesus was crucified uh saw a revival. We see thousands of people in a very short order at Pentecost believe in the name of Jesus. And then it only exploded from that. And within within uh decades, it went from a persecuted to an allowed religion, and then within uh you know, by 300, we have it being the state religion in Rome. The politics that crushed Jesus were then the ones that proclaimed him as the true resurrected king just a couple centuries later. That is a really, really difficult thing to explain. If it was all just a farce. How how else do you come to the conclusion that this thing spread like wildfire when he just hours earlier was seen as a criminal on a cross? At best, a political rebel who didn't things didn't go his way. So those four things. He died, that two tomb was empty, people saw him after, and Christianity exploded. I think that's the best case for the resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

It's almost an acronym.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

What is it? You think about it?

SPEAKER_03 39:24

It could be dead, which is ironic because it's about him being alive. But it's death, empty, appear, and then D for but the D would have to be something, or it could be deer for reach, the R could be reach.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

We'll come we're so close. We can workshop this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

We can workshop.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

What's another word for explosion that starts with a D? Or transformation.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Dynamo, dynamite, dynamite.

Why Belief Still Feels Hard

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Dynamite. We sounded so smart until the last word of the academic. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

Um if the okay, since if there's such clear evidence of the resurrection, then why is it why is Christianity not Christianity is growing? But why is there why why is it so hard for people to believe? If the very key thing logically can be explained, the thing that all of it hinges on.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Why is everyone not a Christian?

SPEAKER_00 40:23

I'll give three reasons. One, I don't think people take the time to think about it. This this took some time to like feel through. I think people are scrolling Instagram and walking their dog and worried about their workout routine and all the rest. I don't think people actually pause to think about the most important questions in life. I think people we used to be very good at that. It's kind of a classical education. You ask, why are we here? What is our purpose? Uh why is there something instead of nothing? What do we make of the most important historical figures? I I think at least in the West and in the last 150 years, we've we've really gotten away from asking some of the most important questions. I think people are distracted into oblivion. Number two, uh, it is admittedly a weird thing to believe because it doesn't happen all the time. So there's like a, oh, this is what we are what we're talking about is not just a logical thing. It is a deeply, it's it's called a miracle for a reason. And that's that there is no uh logical explanation for like natural explanation for it happening. There's only a supernatural explanation for it happening. So kind of the way that you get there is you back into that's why I we talked about these four competing theories that and kind of debunking them is you have to go, okay, what what's what's a reasonable explanation that that could have led to this? And you go, oh yes, that see each of those explains part of it, but then you get you get into it like that's unexplainable with that, you know? And so you kind of back into it. So I think that there is, it's uh it's a it's a not counterintuitive thing to believe. And and the Bible, as we've said, is not shy about that. It was hard for even the people who are closest to Jesus to believe that. Third, uh, and this is not a logical argument, but this is where we dip into uh the spiritual realities. If we believe what the Bible says, and here's a cool thing if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, you have to then reckon with what Jesus believed. Like I'm not a very smart person. Here's my I will, I will, I'll go with the resurrected guy every time. Right? Like if he says something, he probably knows if somebody says something and then they die and rise again. I'm gonna go, I think I'm gonna agree with them.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah. And so it the logic beyond that is like, okay, if Jesus believed the Bible, I'm gonna believe the Bible too, if in in what scripture teaches. The resurrection was his stamp of authority and approval on the things that he said and taught during his life and ministry. And if one of those things is the truth of what we call the Old Testament or the Hebrew scriptures, which he believed. We we're taught that we are broken, sinful, uh, and without any hope on our own. That we are created in love, we ruined it by rebellion, we are lost and without hope with our own resources, and that the the gospels depict a rescue mission of Jesus coming to do what we never could do ourselves. And so if you believe that there is a very real spiritual reality and a hardness of our heart that actually keeps us from faithfulness, belief, the things of God, um, and and there is a very real spiritual enemy that tempts, accuses, lies, and pulls us away, uh, then of course the very thing that Satan is going to come after is, as we said at the beginning, the linchpin of the whole thing in the resurrection. Because if he can keep you from that, then nothing else matters.

Corey’s Road From Atheism

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Nothing else matters. When did you believe?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

It's an interesting question. So here's where uh the honesty of my testimony, I think, is uh I almost wish my story was different. But I'll be honest with you, because I think the tr it's it's the truth is worth worth sharing, you know, and it's it's good to be honest about our stories because uh first of all it's the truth, but second of all, I think the other people might have the same testimony and it might might resonate. Uh the very short version of my story is that I was an atheist in in high school. Uh it was more of a social atheism than an intellectual atheism. Uh my whole world fell apart uh after some things that I was relying on and finding my identity and went away. And I found myself lost lonely and looking for purpose and friends. September of 2007, I kind of started hanging out with some Christians, really liked, was compelled by their lifestyle, their love for each other, whatever, but thought their belief was crazy. Went to a concert, uh, and in the middle it was like a total bait and switch. Preacher guy got up. I thought I was just there for the good music. He shares the gospel and uh something about what he talked about, this God that would chase us down in love, despite our rebellion, uh, and die for us and be raised for us and live for us and invite us in and uh that in Christ we can be called family and forgiven. And I've hope. That was I probably heard that before. Uh, this is where I think looking back, there's there's a spiritual reality of God doing something in your heart to to bring life where there is death. So something radically shifted in my heart. And I use that that language intentionally, my heart in that moment. Where I said, if that's true, then that's worth giving up everything for. And so I found my s my hand in the air doing the altar call thing. To my surprise and to my friend's surprise, and all this. So I went from like pretty deeply ingrained healing. Dug in atheist, you know, because that was where I lot found a lot of my identity when my identity was lost in some other areas. I was like, at least I can cling to my atheism because it's a way for me to look down my nose and kind of be an intellectual snob and call these other people fantasy chasers and whatever. Religion is a crutch. You need that, I don't need that, all that sort of stuff. And so when when my hand was in the air, I was like, okay, I deeply want this thing to be true. And this is where I would rather my story go. I had the least roble story, did the research, the logic bore out, and then I was there. The reality is God came out from my heart first, uh, and then my mind second. And it's a little bit uncomfortable to say because you you you probably can feel in, oh, that's that's uh a bias, then you know, of course, you're gonna chase the things. I hope that we've seen here that there's like I'm a a logical person that that and a lot of this is the apologetics, is born out of that season after I surrender to Christ. Sort of had the Peter when when when Jesus says the hard thing, you know, I think it's eat my flesh and drink my blood, and the crowds leave, and then he turns to his disciples and said, Are you gonna leave too? And Peter, Peter, he goes, uh, where else are we gonna go? You are the one who has the words of life, you know. And that was the that was the compelling part for me. Uh is like I don't know for sure that this is true yet, but I do know that all of that's I've tried that, and it's pretty hopeless and purposeless. And so I was like, I don't know what it is, but I'm really compelled by Jesus. And so I wanted to dig in and see, because you the you think you can't go from atheist to lukewarm Christian or atheist to like non-intellectual Christian. Like, that's not really a God. Right. So I think God used my my atheism actually as a just a propeller for me to dive in deep to the intellectual side of things because I wanted to be able to answer the questions that I had been wrestling with for so long and the doubts that I had for so long. And so I just did a multi-year deep dive into those doubts and those questions. And far from like excusing or shoehorning, I actually found, oh man, this is a really compelling faith that we have. That when Jesus said, uh, was asked, What's the you know, greatest commandment? He said, Worship the Lord with all of your heart and strength and soul and your mind. Mind. And I said, Okay, this is an invitation to an intellectual faith that we uh are invited to ask the hard questions. If you look at doubters in the gospel, Jesus is kind, you know, to to doubters. Help my unbelief. And uh Tim Keller has a great line. He says, uh, a faith without doubt is like a body without antibodies in it. Okay, that that body dies, that body's vulnerable. And so it's a really, really good and healthy thing for somebody who is wrestling with because if you just believe everything you take in, you're it's called being vulnerable or gullible. And we are never called to ha check our brain at the door when it comes to our faith. We're called to wrestle deeply with these things. That's what Israel means. It literally means to wrestle with God. It is a hand-to-hand wrestling match, and that's that's what it is, and that's the name that God gave Israel. And I think it is through wrestling that we see fruit most born in us, not through pretending. So that was my journey of going from unbelief to belief and from uncertainty to uh I think there we stand on really, really solid ground.

Growing Up Christian Without A “Moment”

SPEAKER_03 48:40

I love that. It's a great story. I grew up in a Christian home. So, and around all Christians. And so it was, I don't know, there was never um I never, I never doubted. I mean, I'm I did doubt, but I just always believed it was true because I was always taught it was true. Yeah. And it was just like eating vegetables, right? Like it's something else, the right thing that you do. So I think in some ways I've wished that were different. I would love to, you know, you hear about people who um they they went from like no faith, not being able to understand the Bible to like one day reading it, and it's like scripture says like the scales fell from their eyes, and it was just I always kind of wished I had that kind of experience to where it was all just one big day that everything opened up. Yeah. But it hasn't been. It's just been different.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

I say there's Peter stories and Paul stories. The Paul stories, you know, there's the road, you know, uh uh not the road to Mayus, road Damascus. Damascus. Uh fell off his horse blind, you know. Right? Exactly. You asked Paul when his testimony was, and it's like the Baptist answer of like, I can tell you the day and the time of the hour, right? Uh and then there's a Peter. You tell me where in the Gospels Peter was saved.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

He was saved several different times.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Yeah. But so like there's up and down and up and down. Yeah. And I think that that we have it's a gift to have both of those stories in scripture because it gives uh encouragement for those who went from death to life in an instant and they can say it. It also gives a lot of encouragement and hope for those who are like, you know what? And to parents, like God bless your parents for raising you in a home that like talked about Jesus and honored Jesus. Because I I had a more of a Paul story. I could tell you September 23rd, 2007. I I almost don't want my kids to have a Paul story, right? I want them to when they're pressed, when did you surrender? Like I grew up with this and I grew up loving Jesus. And I can't tell you the day or the hour because God's kindness was just a topic in our household all the time.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

And I believe from a young age. And uh well, that's not gonna be the thing that catches most testimony videos at churches, you know, because it's not the drug sex and rock and roll. And it I think there is power in that faithful testimony. So I just want to like for people who have your story and your testimony, don't be ashamed of it, right? Lean lean into that. That's actually the way that God I think designed, designed families to operate when they're healthy is for kids to grow up knowing the love of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

Yeah. I have been ashamed of it for a while. I've I've a long time and I I've talked to a couple of other people who share that sentiment with me, other preachers' kids and things where they're like, man, I just feel like I can't even be used in God's kingdom because I'm not the one that went away. I'm not the sheep, you know, the one that that Jesus, I mean, Jesus goes after all of us right. Yeah, right. But um but I do appreciate you saying that because I do agree. It's it's different. But there is like there's definitely been temptations in my life, things that had I not been raised the way I was and have the belief, I my life would probably be very different right now. And so God saved me from things before those things probably played out. But he still saved me from them.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Sure. And that was his And Jesus tells you talk about chasing the lost sheep. Jesus in that same section uh in Luke tells the parable of the prodigal son. But it's really prodigal sons. You've got you've got two of them who are running from the father in just in very different ways. Uh one gets all the attention and whatever, but then there's this one who was very close to home but still lost. And so there is a Jesus tells that story, I think, for to say, like, hey, you can wreck your life through despair, you know, and doing your own thing, outward rebellion, or you can wreck your life through pride and inward rebellion, but both take you away from the father. And then and Jesus comes to say, uh, neither the way of pride or despair is is is the way to life. It is the way through me, right? It's like I'm the one who brings both of those in. So either way. Don't be ashamed of your story.

Mary Mistakes Jesus For The Gardener

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Yeah. Um why did Mary see a gardener and not recognize Jesus for who he was? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

That's a good question. Um I don't know if I have a great answer to that. At surface level, um Jesus is in a resurrection body. So we know there's something different about him, right? If we're told, I think uh Paul Paul talks about how we we be we're gonna be raised to um incorruptible bodies, right? They're probably gonna look different to some extent, I don't know how. Obviously, it's not so different that she goes, you're not even human, you know. But it was something different enough to where like it she didn't quite recognize him. But then but then and maybe this is this is where it is for Mary, because it doesn't say that other people didn't recognize Jesus. So that's kind of critical too. And remember at this time Mary didn't believe.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Mary Magdalene?

SPEAKER_00 53:54

She approached she approached the Jesus as the gardener, uh-huh, and she says, They have taken the body of my Lord.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

She says that first the angel, then she says, Have you taken the body of my Lord? If you have, tell me where he is so that I can go get him.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

So what do you mean she doesn't believe?

SPEAKER_00 54:15

She they've taken the body of my lord.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

So she doesn't believe that he's raised from the dead.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

She just thinks that his body's gone. She knows his body's gone and she's she I I need to go get it back. She's just trying to do the like the honorable thing. And then she then he says one word. Remember?

SPEAKER_03 54:30

Hold on, let me think. What does he say? I know what he says.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

He calls her by name. He says Mary. That's it. That's what he says. That's all he says. Says Mary. And then she says Reboni, which it means teacher.

SPEAKER_03 54:44

So she recognizes it.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

And then she recognizes him. So so it might not be a physical thing that is going on. It might be a spiritual thing that just as she is spiritually saying, This is Jesus, that the sort of scales fell off of her own eyes and she recognizes him for who he is. I have a hunch that's more the lane.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Yeah. I mean, I was thinking along the lines of she just wasn't expecting him. Like when you're in a situation and you see someone you know, but you're they're out of context, it's not who you expect, and you kind of don't realize it's them until you actually pay attention. Or wondering if she was stuck in her shame and just wasn't actually like looking at this person.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

That's very possible.

SPEAKER_03 55:26

So she didn't notice?

SPEAKER_00 55:27

It's very possible. At the same time, she approaches him and asks, Oh bum.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

You know, so she's in in her right mind enough to at least say, like, I've got a problem in front of me, I want to solve it. And there's this guy, can you help? You know. So maybe. But I think there's something going on with him calling her by name.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

And then her recognizing and then worshiping him as Lord.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

As we wrap up, when you think about the things that you have done, and maybe it's things you did, or maybe it's things you continue to do now, like habits you have that keep you focused on the things that matter most, focused on Jesus, on studying the Bible and understanding what it says. Because I'm guessing you didn't just stop doing that back then. Um what are what are those things that keep you grounded?

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Um I'll give like a maybe the answer you're hoping for, and maybe the one that I didn't expect. Uh uh so uh one is that I I uh make it a very intentional habit practice to listen to voices that I don't agree with. I think everybody should do that. That's right, it drives me nuts if somebody goes, Oh, I can't believe that you follow that person on Instagram or that you listen, read that book by that author, because don't you know what else they said? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Like, if you just live in an echo chamber, then you will it is intellectually just devastating. Yeah, you'll be dumber.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Yeah.

Elan’s Story And Hope Beyond Death

SPEAKER_00 57:00

So listen to people who who you disagree with. Um so don't just listen to this is this is important. Don't just read Lee Stroble. Watch Lee Strouble in a debate with somebody else. Or go watch the YouTube video of the person who says, here's, you know, four reasons why the resurrection is is you know bogus. Go listen to those people. Wrestle with those voices. Um otherwise you'll be scared of the truth and instead of liberated by it. Uh second and more maybe more personal and more pastoral is our son Elon. So we uh Elon, uh the very short version is he was born in uh 2017 with a very, very rare genetic defect in his brain. You talked with Cash and my wife on on this podcast, uh, or one of your one of your podcasts, Gimberly. Um and he's like one of four documented kids in the whole world with this thing. And we know that his lifespan will not be uh long. We don't know what that looks like. There's a lot of factors, but we don't know when we will say goodbye to Elan. Uh, but we know that we will. Uh his life is kind of ongoing, fragile, lots of medications, lots of hospital visits, you know, and so death feels kind of constantly near for us and for him and his story. Uh that is we live in a broken world, and Elon is uh his story is that way because we live in a broken world. That said, we cannot be people who just eat, drink, and be merry and avoid thinking about death. There is a gift in thinking about death. I read a pastor a while ago lament the fact that we've gotten rid of uh the the tradition of having graveyards in the front of churches that we go to. We like to show up on Sunday and it's nice and clean and bright and uh happy and joyful, right? Because we're called to be joyful. But for a long time, uh many places, parishioners would have to walk past a graveyard into the doors of their church to worship on a Sunday morning. And in so doing, they would have to reckon every single week with death. Every single week they'd look at names, dates, and dates and say, That'll be me too, one day. To dust I will return. And that is a sobering reality that keeps you grounded and keeps you mindful of your own frailty, keeps you from pride, mindful of your own mortality, and most of all reminded that you, if you're gonna have any hope beyond the grave, then it's gotta come from somebody else rather than you. It has to come from this resurrection story that we've been talking about today. Elon is our our kind of gravestone, is kind of difficult, is that is to say, he keeps us reminded that resurrection has to be real for his story to have any hope. And the reality is too that that uh it makes us think not just about his story, but our own. Because um as sad as it will be when we have to say goodbye to Elon, we will all die. And if Elon were perfectly healthy, if we prayed our prayers, we prayed for miracles in his life, if those were answered tomorrow and he was suddenly a perfectly normal, healthy boy, he will still die. You see? So resurrection must be real if we're gonna have any hope. And so um he keeps us really, really grounded. Um and uh and resurrection is top of mind for the Shumei family. And I think that's a gift of God that he has given us through Elon's story. Um, we are mindful of the fact that we will be raised one day, that death doesn't get the final word, that we will be raised with incorruptible bodies to everlasting life because Jesus was the first fruits of resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Isn't it amazing how something as devastating and heartbreaking as Elon's story not only continues to give your family hope, but it's been a signal of hope for the people that you share it with and sharing his journey. Yeah. And um just the ability. I think sometimes I can forget. I a couple of months ago I was reading, I can't remember where in scripture, but talking about how miracles happen in order for people to have faith. Like that's why God does miracles. And I can't remember where where it said that. But and then I've kind of been noticing since then, like pr when pre when God answers prayers and people share about it, or when people share, like when y'all share about things that Elon happened happening with Elon on Facebook and things, and you know, believers being able to come together and pray is a beautiful thing, and to celebrate those together and the increase of faith that can happen every time that that happens are like these little breadcrumbs of heaven. Yes, here that we'll get to experience without the heartache of it one day in the next life. Yeah. Um, and so I just love how you and Kesha both share so openly about your stories and your struggles, but not as a way like not as a way of woe is us, but as a way of, and this is how God is still good. Yeah.

unknown 1:02:02

Yeah.

Closing Encouragement And Next Steps

SPEAKER_03 1:02:03

I think that takes a special person and a special mindset. Thank you. Corey, this was amazing. It finally happened. It finally happened. Thank you. Absolutely. And yes, I I'm eager for people to hear it and hopefully like me be able to walk away with ah, I know I have more either I have now more confidence about what I believe, or hmm, I'd never heard it that way before. Sure. Never, never thought much about this Christianity thing. But maybe I'll dive in and lean in a bit more, which both are wins.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

Both are wins. Well, thank you for the opportunity. This has been great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

I love being able to have a reason for my faith. And for so much of my life, I always thought about that being the story about how Jesus has changed my life. And that is true. But today, what we discussed, this is the logical reason for our faith. And so if you are a Christian, I hope that you gained evidence and gained logic for how you can talk about your trust in the Bible and in Jesus and in why you believe what you believe. If you're not and you were listening to this just to learn, I'm so excited that you were here. I encourage you to reach out, ask questions, leave a comment below if you have any questions. I would love to answer them. But of course, I encourage you to continue going down your journey. If you want to know more about the Bible, there's a group you can follow on YouTube called the Bible Project, and they break down what the Bible says, what things mean in a way that's incredibly easy to understand. I would encourage you to start there. And if there's a friend that maybe you want to share this with who has been struggling with their faith, I think this would be a great thing for you to share as well. Until next week, remember, especially because of what we can believe in in trusting that the Bible is true, that there is always hope. And I also want you to stay strong and especially strong in your faith.