Dr. John Gottman Reveals All The Top Secrets For Great Relationships

Most marriage advice is recycled fluff.

This is not that.

I sat down with Dr. John Gottman, the man who has spent 40+ years studying what actually makes marriages work and what destroys them.

Not opinions. Not theories. Exposed-to-thousands-of-couples-in-a-research-lab findings.

And what he told me?

Some of it will surprise you.

The couples who last, the "masters," aren't the ones who avoid conflict. They're the ones who lean into it without getting defensive. They stay curious instead of critical. They treat their spouse's complaints like information, not attacks.

One man in his study actually helped his wife figure out exactly what about him made her the most angry. Non-defensive. Just listening.

That's the standard.

We also got into the stuff nobody talks about openly. Why most couples are embarrassed to discuss sex. Why compatibility is actually a myth. What commitment really looks like on a Tuesday morning when you're frustrated. And how the way you respond to "no" in the bedroom determines everything.

Dr. Gottman told me that after 35 years of marriage, he still looks forward to talking to his wife at breakfast every single morning.

If your marriage feels disconnected, boring, or like you're roommates, this conversation will show you why. And more importantly, what the research says you can do about it.

This is one of my favorite interviews I've ever done.

I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.

The Way You Show Up is for the high-achiever who is tired of "fine."

We're dismantling the average life to build an exceptional one—using the science of the PIES: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual health.

If you want to save your marriage, go to Marriage Helper. If you want to master yourself and lead your legacy, stay here.

New episodes every Tuesday.

Don't just exist. Show up.

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Transcript

Why Trusted Marriage Advice Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I always say that if you're going to take marriage advice from anyone, you better make sure that it's someone who is reputable and knows what in the world they're talking about. And of course, with the work that I have done at Marriage Helper over the past 14 years, Marriage Helper is an amazing source of trusted marriage advice. But one of the reasons that Marriage Helper is so effective at what we have done with helping marriages and relationships is because we get a lot of our principles from research and from people who have gone before us and pioneered the way. And I love learning from amazing researchers, especially as a PhD and a doctorate of psychology. I love that stuff. And so in today's episode, I'm interviewing one of the best, Dr. John Gottman. And we are going to be talking about all things marriage and all things relationship. This was such a fantastic episode that I did. I recorded it a couple of years ago and we just found the video file. So never before released on YouTube, here is my episode with Dr. John Gottman. Dr. Gottman, I have read so much of your research. I have taught your research. I have read your book, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Oh, thank you, Kimberly. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Your work has, I know you hear this, but I have to say it to you, your work has been so fundamental in so many relationship

How Gottman Began Relationship Research

SPEAKER_03 1:28

areas over the past 40 years. So thank you for the work that you've done. And as a current PhD student myself, I understand that research is not easy to do. And especially the kind of research you have done with the Love Lab and all of the even the way that you did the expressions and just calculating people's micro expressions at hours, hundreds, thousands of hours of work that you have put into this.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Pretty tedious. So what led you to want to study marriage and relationships to begin with?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I think it was my own incompetence at relationships with women that really motivated me and also uh Robert Levinson, who's been my lifetime collaborator. Both of us were not doing very well in our relationships with women. But now we're both happily married. So you know, we learned from our research findings how to be better at relationships.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

So did you take the struggles you were having, and is that what turned into your research questions?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yes, absolutely. Uh that was the motivation was to really learn. Uh we didn't know when we began if there really were people who were much better at relationships than Bob and I were. And, you know, it turned out, yes, there are. There are these masters of relationships. And basically, research is learning from those people what it takes to have a great relationship and learning from people who are less fortunate, like Bob and I were, and seeing what they're doing wrong and seeing what the masters are doing right. So that's kind of what was the basis of the research, just those comparisons.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

So you talk about the masters and the disasters of relationships.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Which which of the two do you believe that you learned more from? The masters or the disasters?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Well, that's an interesting question, Kimberly, because uh prior research and writing on relationships was really mostly done by therapists who never saw happy, stable relationships. So we actually learned a lot from both groups. You know, we could see ourselves reflected in the disasters, but the masters really taught us quite a lot. I'll give you an example of that. Um so you know, we found that in in the disaster relationships, when people dealt with conflict, they were pointing their finger at their partner and criticizing their partner and saying, here's what's wrong with our relationship. It's you. You have to change. And until you change, the relationship isn't going to be happy. You know, as far as I can tell, I'm pretty much perfect, but you're defective. That's criticism. Well, it turned out that um the masters were less critical, but some of them actually were critical. So we can actually see what happened when a master couple, when one of the partners was critical. And it turned out the response was completely different. Instead of saying, Yeah, well, you're not so perfect, here's what's wrong with you, they said, you know, that's interesting. You know, maybe you're right. Maybe I can be selfish sometimes or

Masters And Disasters In Conflict

SPEAKER_00 5:05

insensitive or thoughtless or even mean. So tell me more about what you're feeling, and I want to understand what you need. So it was a totally different response. Instead of becoming defensive, counter-attacking, or acting like an innocent victim, they said, Talk to me. I really want to know what you're feeling. My hero is this guy on one uh one of our subjects who was a lawyer, and he was helping his wife identify what it was in his personality that made her the most angry. And I just admire this guy enormously because he was saying, Well, is it the way I talk? And she said, Yeah, that's it, the way you talk. Well, what is it about the way I talk? And she said, I'm not really sure. And he said, Well, is it, am I do I sound like an authoritarian? She said, Yeah, that's it. You sound like an authoritarian. I have spoken. That's the way you sound like a king. You know, I have spoken, and that's the law. I said, Well, he says, it works in the courtroom. She says, Well, it doesn't work with me at home. So here he is helping his wife identify what about him makes her the most angry. Non-defensive. What an amazing guy. And I try to model that with my wife. You know, she's upset with me or disappointed, or I've hurt her feelings. I have a little notebook that I get out of my back pocket and I say, just like that guy, I say, talk to me, baby. I'm listening. So we learned so much from the masters, uh, not only what people did wrong when the relationships were in trouble, but what the masters did differently.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Now, that man, let's take that man as an example. It's not normal human nature to lean in to someone who is uh maybe coming across as attacking or critical. It's not what what are some protective factors? I mean, do you think it has to do with how people are raised, where if they don't learn it from you or from your research, if they just naturally do that, like the masters that you studied in the love lab, they were naturally doing it before you ever came out with your research because you were researching it to figure it out. So what what do you think led them to be more like that?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

I I I think that's part of it. I think I think you've got it. You know, they they actually saw uh in their parents or in other other people around them, or they figured it out themselves. They f they they saw people acting non-defensively, and they adopted this motto, you know, and they didn't know each other, right? These are all people we studied in the lab, but they all figured it out that, you know, when you respond defensively, you just add flame to the fire. And you don't calm things down. You don't really help your partner tell you what your partner needs and what your part your partner's feeling. So they kind of figured it out somehow. And I think a lot of it has to do with the models they had as children.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

Mm-hmm. Your prior resour research that I've read said that of all of the marital problems that people experience, it could really be boiled down into one of three reasons that people divorce, because they don't feel liked, loved, or respected. Right. Do you believe that that still holds to be true?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yes, I do. I I think that's absolutely true. And, you know, I think it's um it's that quite often people get so absorbed with their career or focused on their children or anything else other than the relationship. So they're not systematically building a culture of appreciation and respect and affection in the relationship. When people do that, when they actually are focusing on the relationship, not just their job and their children, when they're really not neglecting the relationship, everything's is fine. For example, you know, the biggest study ever done on what makes sex great in a relationship and what makes it awful, done with 70,000 people in 24 countries, found that what makes the difference is not what happens in the bedroom. It's about affection, it's about caring, it's about saying I love you every day and meaning it. It's about giving your partner compliments, giving your partner surprise gifts, having romantic dates every week, having romantic vacations, cuddling. So, you know, cuddling, you know, you think, well, I mean, why is that important? Because it's not sexual. No, but when we cuddle, we secrete oxytocin. So of all the couples they studied who didn't cuddle, only 4% had a great sex life. 96% of the non-cutdlers had a terrible sex life. So it's about affection, it's about love, it's about respect, it's about caring. So it's not really that complicated.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

It's not that complicated, but it's not that doesn't necessarily mean it's uh easy to do in your day-to-day life unless you're intentional.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

That's right. That's that's the key thing. I think you've hit the nail on the head, Kimberly. It's about being intentional. The Sloan study at UCLA was a really good example. Uh they studied dual career couples, and they found that that these young couples spent less than 10% of the time in the same room in an evening. And they talked to each other less than 45 minutes a week. So they really were not nurturing the relationship, not giving it the attention it deserved. They weren't asking one another questions, they weren't going on dates, romantic dates, they were really letting the relationship kind of foul, you know, just disintegrate because they weren't giving it any energy or attention.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Sure. Now, this is a question that I wanted to ask you. In in some of the research that I've done looking at um marriage and how it's changed since the 1940s, 1950s to now, in the 50s and before, marriage was referred to as something called a commitment-based relationship. And what the research I've read has has indicated is

The Power Of Nondefensive Listening

SPEAKER_03 11:40

that starting in the 70s, which is around right before the time you started to do your research, that it started to become more of what is called expressive individualism. Whereas in the 50s and 40s, the the commitment behind marriage was I will do what's best for the relationship. And then in the 70s, it began to become, I want to do what's best for me in the moment to make me happy. Do you think that's true? Number one. And then my second question is, how do you think culture is affecting marriage and the future of marriage today?

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Wow, those are those are big questions. Yes, I think you're right. I think the 60s, uh especially and 70s, but especially the 60s, where there was a much greater focus on self and on being an individual and being happy. And whatever feels good is good, that sort of mentality uh that focused much more on the individual and individual development. Not a bad idea, especially for women. I think uh it was really critical for women to undergo that kind of change. Because women had been really thinking that if they nurtured the relationship, everything would work out. If they f if they put all their eggs in the relationship basket, those eggs would be treated with respect and gentleness and care. And that just wasn't true. Um so women really needed to develop their own dreams. Just the way men had been nurtured to develop their dreams. Women had to have their dreams, their wishes, their hopes known, first of all, and respected, second of all. So it turned out that men had to go through a really big change in honoring women and accepting influence from women. And that turned out to be the integration that was needed to go from just focusing on the relationship and commitment and not on the quality of the relationship. Just its its existence was enough. Well, I think women were saying no, it's not enough. Really, it has to be a high-quality relationship because women were better off alone than they were in a bad relationship. And that became a known fact that women, you know, didn't need men to be happy. They could be quite happy alone, but in a great relationship, they'd be much better off than being alone. In a relationship that respected them and honored them, they would live longer, they'd be healthier, and their children would be better off. But the quality of the relationship became essential. And that's a transformation I think you're talking about. So whereas it seems like the 60s was a selfish period, because people are focusing more on themselves, it turned out to be that that selfishness was required for women to have a voice and to be heard. And, you know, it's still the case that women in heterosexual couples are a lot less happy than men are. But the men who listen really are way ahead of the game compared to the men who don't listen and ignore their wife's dreams and happiness and needs.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Now that we have more women who are working, working full-time, maybe even being the full-time breadwinner for the family. What I have noticed with my friends and other people I know, and even with my own marriage to some extent, is that's there, there's not a lot to go by. Like my mom did not work, right? I never saw this modeled for me. And in culture, it's not the norm, or at least it didn't used to be the norm, but it's coming becoming more of the norm now. And I was seeing something the other day, and I I don't know if this is actual research or just a statistic that was out there, but it said something like 90% of couple, or there's a 90% increase in the divorce rate of couples where the woman is the breadwinner. Now, I think it's interesting to ask you that question since you're the expert on divorce. But but what do you think about that? I mean, how can we when this when there's the couples where women are working and they're working full-time or they're the full-time breadwinner, what are some of the best things that couple can do to have a high-quality, satisfying marriage and not an unhappy one where the woman ends up with most of the burden?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

That's a great question, too. And you know, I think a a lot of sociologists have weighed in on this question. And the answer is very simple. Men who help, men who do housework and childcare have happier wives. And and it's really about pitching in and helping. And that's been a big change. And yet there's still there's still the case that in a lot

Liked Loved Respected As The Core

SPEAKER_00 16:55

of relationships, women have two shifts, as Ollie Hochchild has pointed out. You know, they they work most, you know, over 70% of American women work outside the home, and yet when they come home, they have another job. You know, they have to they have to clean, they have to, you know, make dinner and all that kind of stuff. And it turns out that men who help with the housework get a lot more sex, and they're much happier. So that you know, if you you know, if if you vacuum, you know, if you clean up, if you cook, if you help with the children, uh, you have a happier wife and a better relationship. And not only that, you're more involved with your children. So part of what's happened is, and this has been an emergent thing, is the nurture and father is a new thing that's happened since the 1960s and 1970s. That men who really are involved in the care of babies and you know, have learned that when they when they bathe their baby or diaper their baby, it's really fun. It's the baby's really interested in you and really likes you and is more attached to you. And your life is much more satisfying if you're involved with your kids. So this idea that you can be masculine and still be a nurturant, loving person, you know, that's uh that's a new concept, you know, since the 50s. And so we see that the women's movement has really helped men kind of increase their repertoire of emotional responsiveness to their children, to their wives, and it's really opened up men, I think, in a very big way. It's created a new kind of relationship. Now, it's not a relationship without conflict, because once once you're equal in a relationship, you have more conflict. You know, you don't have those stereotype things to go by, like the man's in charge that makes the decisions. You've got to kind of duke it out. So there is more conflict, and people, a lot of people don't know how to have conflict in a way that is constructive. So, particularly Americans think conflict is a waste of time and it's destructive. But actually, conflict has a goal, and the goal is mutual understanding. And once people realize that conflict is not only inevitable, but actually helpful in a relationship, that you get to understand your partner better, you sharpen your ability to love more, then the relationship really changes very dramatically.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

This is one area of your research I I just love because it's so true that the couples that want to stray away from it or push it down, or or that think that if we fight, it must mean we weren't meant to be together or we're not compatible. Yeah, you know, this just turns it on its head and says, no, conflict is is helpful. It's a way to grow, it's a way to connect.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Much more of an Italian view than an American view.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

I love it. So can you walk us through what healthy conflict looks like and what to avoid in conflict?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, I, you know, that's what Bob and I discovered some things about conflict that are were really surprising. Um so by bringing couples into our lab every couple of years, we learn that most conflicts never get resolved in a relationship. And they really arise from the fact that we choose somebody who's very different from us. And the big mistake that people make in relationships is once they're together, they try to change their partner into them. And we're not really attracted to our clone. We don't we're not attracted to somebody who's like us, you know. Uh and that that's true, you know, across the planet, you know, like in Israeli kibbutzim, where boys and girls were raised together, they're more like brother and sister, and they're not interested in one another. They turn out to be too similar. So we really are looking for people who are different from us. And there's even a wonderful study by Klaus Weddick in Germany that found that women really are attracted to men who smell very different from them. Men wore t-shirts for two days. And the women selected the t-shirt of the man who was most different from them in the genes of the immune system. And when they did the next experiment to see would they like these men more when they met them, the answer was yes. They like them more. So women are looking for somebody very, very different. Now, once you are together with somebody who's very different from you, if you try to turn that person into To you, you're going to have a bad relationship. If you can really be nurtured by the differences, then you'll have a great relationship. My wife is an athlete. She

Culture Shifts That Changed Marriage

SPEAKER_00 22:10

was a downhill skiing racer in college. She's a mountain climber. She went to Man Everest Base Camp Number Two before she was 50 years old. And, you know, I'm much more of a wimp. You know, I exercise, but not like she does. I'm on the treadmill, you know, watching videos of the great courses. But she's out there, you know, hiking, hiking in the wilderness. Well, I learned to appreciate nature really through her. And so the difference really enriched both of us. And we we loved getting into a kayak and you know, kayaking out in the ocean and seeing the wildlife. She really helped me to see nature. I grew up in New York City, and for me, nature was taking a subway to to Central Park and having a picnic and then going home and wiping the nature off before you went inside. But for her, nature was about loving trees and, you know, really being a steward of nature. And I've learned I've learned from her. So the differences can enrich people. And if they try to really change their partner into them, they're going to have a very unhappy relationship. So it's it's again, it's not very complicated to have a great relationship. You pick somebody very different from you, learn from those differences and be enriched by them.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

I heard your wife, Dr. Gottman, say that the great myth is that you have to be compatible.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

I loved that quote.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, if you're compatible, you're probably going to be bored. You know, I mean, you know, if you're if you have the same personality, it's not interesting. It's not interesting to have a relationship with yourself. There's nothing new. There's nothing uh, you know, I, you know, I love talking to Julie, and you know, it's never changed. You know, 35 years, I still look forward to talking to her at breakfast. And I think that's what makes a relationship really work is to keep curiosity alive. That's why we wrote the Eight Dates book, was to nurture curiosity in one another.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yes. Now, what you just said, after 35 years, you still love talking to her. Are you are both of you just continuing to learn, grow, dive into your hobbies, and then that's something you're intentional about talking about every every day?

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

How do you not run out of things to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 24:48

I don't know. You know, it's like, you know, I just uh she keeps changing. She's so interesting. I mean, she's, you know, she has a such a rich inner world, you know, just hearing about what she dreamt last night and what she makes of it, how she understands it. You know, she told me about a dream she had. We're expecting our first grandchild right now, you know. So we're both dreaming about babies a lot. And she had a dream last night about baby animals coming to uh out of the forest into a pond, and she was observing them. And, you know, so she's telling me uh about her dream and telling me about you know what it means about her becoming a grandma. And I'm going, wow, that's so interesting. And I'm dreaming about babies too, you know. So it it never stops. It's a it's a long conversation, it never ends. And keeping curious about her, you know, when we go on a date, I get ready for the date. I I think to myself, what do I know about Julie right now? And what don't I know about her? And then I I have questions and I ask her those questions. And it's always fascinating to see how she views the world.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

I love that. It's, I mean, marriage is the most important relationship, I believe, that you have here on this earth. It's the person that you chose to be with, it's the person you're modeling your behavior to the children for how they're gonna grow up and experience it. Right. And so I love having this mindset approach of approach it with curiosity and newness and and like it's the most important relationship in your life because it is. But it's not what people typically do.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

I agree with you, Kimberly. You know, there's there's um, you know, when we're a tourist and we go, you know, to a new town, let's say we take a vacation in Italy, and we're in this little town near Venice, which is just filled with questions. We just want to know who built that church and who made those stained glass windows, and you know, what do they have in the market here? And you know, what's the wine like and what's the cuisine like? And we have all these questions we want to answer. Well, you know, being married is about being a tourist in the landscape of your partner's mind and heart. And if you can still be a tourist and say, so what's on your mind right now? What's what's on your heart? What are you thinking about? What are you worried about? What are you hoping for? What are you wishing for? What's going on inside you? Then you stay alive and curious, and you you are enriched by your conversation with one another and your time together. It's not any more complicated than that.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

I love it. Well, let's talk about this book, Eight Dates. So my husband and I actually got this last year, and we've been working through it. I was talking to him the other day about it. I said, I can't believe I'm gonna be talking to Dr. Gottman about this book, and we have not finished it in a year.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Well, what what's been your favorite date so far?

SPEAKER_03 27:59

It was let's talk about what what we might fight about. Like these are the things it was, you know, one of us is more punctual, punctual, one is less. Um, differences in how we parent and things like that. That one was my favorite because my husband and I do have a lot of conflict. We don't shy away from it. But I what I don't think we do well, or what we're learning to do better, is to have the conversations on the front end before it becomes conflict. And doing that as much as possible. It was the it was the chapter where it said 69% of conflict is gonna be is never gonna be solved. You just have to learn how to respect each other in your differences. It was that chapter.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah. And you know, that's a really big thing because accepting the differences is really what the masters do. And even being able to laugh about the differences and see them over and over again, and then actually respecting those differences and understanding, well, this is, you know, this is this is a part of the the woman I love. This

Breadwinner Dynamics And Sharing The Load

SPEAKER_00 29:10

is a part of the man I love, you know, and that's what he's like. And here are here are some of the triggers that that person has and you know really gets upset very easily about. And here are here are the crazy buttons, the things that make them really globalistic, you know, and learning that about one another then turns a perpetual problem into one that's an exploration of your dreams and your hopes and your wishes.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

But you know what I love about the book more than anything is the first of all, the way it's set up was definitely planned, right? Like it goes through trust and commitment is the first date because that's foundational. If you don't have this trust and commitment, it's harder to talk about conflict. It's harder to talk about sex.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

And so every chapter is there for a reason, and it ends with dreams, right? Because this is like it's oh, you know, we're we're closing it, but it's closing with something for us to be aspirational about and and to take us further and to go faster. And so the way it's put out is beautiful. But my favorite part is that it gives you a reason to go on dates. Right. And it gives you here's eight critical and essential conversations, and here's the template, here's what to read beforehand, here's the chapter summary, here's an exercise for you to do separate or together and talk about. And then here's what to do on your date, here's what to talk about. It's just it's a it's a plan for how to have a great date. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah, and we field tested the dates too. You know, being researchers, we actually, 350 couples, both uh same-sex and cross-sex relationships, agreed to videotape, audiotape, I mean their dates, and we could analyze them and we could, you know, rule out the dates that turned out to be complete duds, you know, and and have and have the dates, you know, we could fine-tune them so that, you know, they didn't have any snags in them. They didn't really get people into conflict. They actually all they do is keep curiosity alive. Even the date on conflict is not intended for people to have conflict. It's intended to say, so what's been your experience with conflict in a relationship? What have you seen in your parents? What have you not seen? Uh how do you want to be talked to talked to when you when I disagree with you? How do you want me to talk to you? What feels respectful? What feels constructive to you? You know, and so you're you're really sort of fashioning your own way of dealing with conflict by keeping curiosity alive. Rather than being aggressive, you know, and hostile about it, you're being open-minded about it and listening.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Right. So in your testing, so this just piqued my research mind. When you had these 350 couples go on the dates and then you would listen to them, would you change the dates and have them go back on a date with the new information and then continue to research what the what the audio was like until it was what you want, what you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, we were able to do some of that. We, you know, we you know, unfortunately, we didn't have any uh research funding to do this work. Or we we would have done it, you know, much, much more carefully over time. Uh but we we did the best we could, and some of that really involved changing the a date that was not working that we thought was an important thing for couples to talk about, and seeing if we could make the date, you know, stay alive for people. Um and then, you know, there was a lot of serendipity in it because the date on trust and commitment turned out to be the most productive date of all of them. Because we were asking people what does that mean to you to trust someone? What does it mean to you to distrust someone? Have have you been betrayed in your relationship? Have you trusted someone who really wasn't trustworthy? What was that experience like? And what do you need to feel safe in a relationship? What do you need to feel like your partner's really there for you when the chips are down? And so people exploring that and just talking about it led them then to go to the next stage and say, What can I do to make you trust me more? What can I do to show you that you are the love of my life and I'm not going anywhere. Even if even if we go through a rough period, I'm not gonna hang in there. What can I do to make you believe that? And so people really got to where they could be open-minded about their partner's deepest fears and greatest hopes and dreams for making a relationship safe and trustworthy, and really being there for one another when the chips are down. Rather than going through these emotional injuries where they they just don't know what what is it that means trust to you? What is it that means commitment to you? So it's a great date.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

It is all of them

Healthy Conflict And Embracing Differences

SPEAKER_03 34:35

so far, we have to finish it and we will, but all of them so far have been great. There has been none of them that have been that have been negative. And there have been things, not this, but different things that my husband and I have done in the past that did end up negatively, ended up in fights, like just different, you know, maybe like card decks, not the Gottman card decks. Those are great, the one that's on the phone, the app on the phone. Those are great in helping to, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

That's you should tell your you should tell your uh listeners because that's a card deck, that's an app that we have that's available for free in the app store. If you just type in Gottman Card decks, and it's been downloaded 350,000 times so far. And it helps couples just talk about really tough things. Even building a love map of your partner's erotic world, knowing what turns your partner on and turns your partner off. Hundred questions you can ask a man, a hundred questions you can ask a woman about their inner erotic world. And so many couples in America are embarrassed to talk about sex. And they don't.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Yes. So we'll have the link to that in the show notes so that people can find it because it it is great. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, my husband and I were on a trip in Arizona and we had a four-hour drive. And when we were dating back, you know, 11 years ago, he we used to play the question game where we would just ask each other questions. But now, I mean, last week he said, pull up that card deck and go through the the questions, the open-ended questions in it. And so we spent four hours just asking each other some questions.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

So there's different ones. So for the listeners to know, there's different types. You can do the sexual ones, you can do more open-ended ones. And so there's a lot of options, and it's great to help keep you connected. And we'll have we'll have the link there. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you about going back to commitment. How would you define commitment in a relationship? Because I think you did these dates on dating or married people, is that correct? Correct. In the 350?

SPEAKER_02 36:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

So is there what is the difference? Or maybe another way to say is how does commitment change when you're dating versus when you're married? And how do you is that measured differently?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah, that's a really great question. And uh, you know, fortunately, the research of a brilliant woman named Carol Rusbalt, uh, really 30 years of research that she did on commitment really helped us understand what commitment is like in relationships that work. And uh it's kind of a surprising thing that she found. And it has to do with what do you think about when things aren't going well between you and your partner? And so when things aren't going well, do you give voice to your complaints to your partner? Or do you find somebody else to complain to about your partner? Are you are you raising those issues with your partner or avoiding those issues? And it turns out that if you are complaining to somebody else about your partner, then what you do is you give yourself permission to do that, to complain about your partner to somebody, and you magnify in your mind what's wrong with your partner, and you think to yourself, I can do better. I'm suffering, you know, and look at all the negative things about my partner. Whereas if you give voice to those complaints with your partner, what you're actually doing the way you're thinking, Carol taught us, is that you're magnifying your partner's positive qualities. And you in your mind, you're minimizing your partner's negative qualities. So I'm saying, God, you know, Julie's a woman I love. And, you know, right now I'm not feeling real happy. So I'm gonna talk to her about it because she's she's a great person. I mean, you know, she's a kind, generous, you know, loving person. So I'm gonna tell her, you know, uh, honey, uh I'm really unhappy because we're not making love very often now. Or, you know, we're not having conversations like we used to, or we're not having a lot of fun or adventure. I'm gonna talk to her about it because I I feel lucky to have her in my life, even though things are crummy right now. So I go to her and complain, and because she's she's the love of my life, and she's she's the one I have to talk to about this to make it better. So what that's what Carol Rustball showed us, that there's a process that leads to betrayal. And the process is I think there's an alternative and I can do better than this person in my life. And once I start thinking I can do better, then I abandon the relationship. I complain to somebody else about her. I give myself permission to cross boundaries, and I think to myself, God, you know that that lady in Starbucks that I see in the morning, you know, who carries that really cute umbrella, she has a great smile. And Julie hasn't smiled that that at me for a long time, you know. And, you know, why don't I have a conversation with her? And, you know, maybe if I have a conversation with her, I can say she says, Well, you know, are you married? And I say, Yeah, I am, but I'm really not happy, right? So I cross a boundary. I talk about my wife to somebody else. And it's a potential alternative relationship. So that's what Carol Russell taught us. She she's done the only research in the world that could predict sexual infidelity in heterosexual couples. So brilliant research. And so commitment, you know, you think commitment is something you say at the altar when you get married or make, you know, have a commitment ceremony. But it's something she showed us that you do every day. Every day when I'm not with Julie, I'm thinking in my mind, boy, I am

Staying Curious With Eight Dates

SPEAKER_00 41:00

really lucky to have Julie in my life. And there is nobody, there's no woman on the planet that can replace her. And I think about stuff like, you know, she knew my mother, my mother's not alive anymore. You know, we we raised a child together, and she's such a great mom, and now she's going to be a grandma, and I'm going to be a grandpa. And so I think about all the positive qualities, and that's what commitment's about. So we understand commitment through this beautiful research that Carol Rustbalt has done. And I'm unfortunately, Carol C-A-R-Y, Rust Bolt, died at the age of 51 from breast cancer. And so, and she never wrote a book. So if you want to read about it, I wrote a book called The Science of Trust. And her work is described there. And I wish Car I had known Carol, and I wish she had written a book for the general public because her insights into loyalty and betrayal are really just absolutely beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

You know, I it's real that's really fascinating. And the other layer that I think fits into this somehow is someone could be of a faith. So I I am of a faith that I value the commitment that I've made in my marriage, right? And many of the people I know are of the same one. So outwardly, like I'm committed. But mentally, if I were to begin thinking those things, like you said, I'm frustrated with my husband, his name's Rob. If I'm frustrated with Rob and just start to think, are there better alternatives? I start to notice the guy at Starbucks, right? Like if I start to mentally do that, I might never think that physically I would do anything because I'm committed. Like I made a vow before God, I honor that. Um But how does that affect my happiness in the marriage, the way I begin to treat Rob? Right. Like I and that could lead to betrayal, even if I never actually cross over into a physical or emotional infidelity.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

That's exactly right. That's what Carol taught us. So it, you know, it's almost like there's a switch, you know, like a railroad car switch. And you can go one way toward loyalty and another way toward betrayal. And even if you don't have an affair, you're treating Rob entirely differently. You're you're seeing Rob as dispensable. You're seeing Rob as, yeah, you know, I can get rid of him and I still can have a happy life, you know. So you're not taking what he's saying as seriously. There are alternatives. And, you know, and now, you know, you don't have to really complain to him about what what's bugging you about him. Whereas if you're committed, you're gonna say, listen, Rob, you gotta you you gotta pay attention to what I'm feeling right now. It's very important, you know. You're losing me. You know, I'm becoming more distant from you. Pay attention. And that's what you do when you're committed. You actually give voice to your complaints. And so that whole idea of taking your partner seriously enough to have conflict with them is absolutely critical. And that's what Carol showed us.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

So what about when someone's in a marriage or dating relationship where they where they are taking it seriously? They're listening to this podcast, they're reading all the books, they're trying to do all the things, but they have a spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend that is not interested or not engaging. What do you recommend for those people to do to try and lead their loved one to engage back into the relationship and care?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Yeah, that's that's a great question, Kimberly. And that's kind of why we designed the date on trust and commitment. So the first step is to really be curious, not judgmental about your partner and saying, oh, well, I'm the enlightened one and my partner is living in the dark, you know, uh my partner's stubborn and unwilling to, you know, doesn't care about me really enough to read this book. But if you go on a date on trust and commitment, you're really saying to your partner, I'm curious about what it means to you and what you know what being safe in a relationship means to you. And how have you been disappointed in your other relationships? How did your parents show one another that they were committed and they were trustworthy? Or how did they fail to do that? Um, and when you open yourself up and are curious, then you can find, you know, that maybe there's a reason why your partner is less committed and less trusting than you are. And, you know, and your partner can let you know what that means, you know. So you there are surprises there, you know. So you might find out, well, gee, he's really telling me or she's really telling me that my attitude towards saving money really gets in the way of his feeling trusting of me. And that if I if I was dedicated more to saving money, he or she would feel m closer to me and safer in the relationship. You know, big surprise. Really? That's not yeah, because here's what I grew up with in terms of safety and money and poverty and wealth, right? So there's a big surprise. And so each one of the dates are designed to maximize curiosity rather than blame and accuse and say, well, you're not as committed as I am. You're not, you know, you don't trust me. What's wrong with you, you know? But to actually say, help me understand how you feel. Right. Help me understand how you view the world. And when you're open and curious like that, there are all these surprises there. And you can then build trust and commitment within that world of being curious and interested and open-minded.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

So, Dr. Gottman, you asked me the question, which was my favorite date? What is your favorite date in the Eight Dates book?

SPEAKER_00 47:14

My favorite date is the one on sex. And uh because, you know, you know, for the past almost 50 years, I've had couples in the lab talking about a sexual issue that

Commitment As A Daily Choice

SPEAKER_00 47:30

they have. And in America, if you don't come from a Hispanic or Latino background, that's something we discovered. If you come from a Hispanic or Latino background, the culture really approves of you talking openly about sex. And the same thing is true for gay and lesbian couples. They feel comfortable being direct about sex and saying, you know, I really want more oral sex. And here's here's what turns me on, and here this is what I want. Or, you know, I would like to try this, or, you know, they focus on non-monogamy as an issue. And they're open about it. But most American couples from all these other cultures that we have in the United States, so many are very embarrassed to talk to each other about sex. And so they don't really ask questions. They don't really know their partner sexually. And uh and that's so sad. You know, why why? I mean, if you know, if you um were going to give your partner a back rub, you know, and a massage, you might start off giving them a massage the way you like to get one, but you would certainly listen to their feedback and say, no, you know, rub in a circle rather than up and down, you know, harder there. Oh, over to the left, over to the right, right? And so and you would you wouldn't feel defensive about getting that kind of feedback about how to give your partner a massage. But with with sex, people feel personally offended. What? You don't you don't like the way I do this?

SPEAKER_03 49:04

And you know, so you just don't want to be perfect for the first time?

SPEAKER_00 49:08

It's so silly. Why why would people why should they stay unhappy about such things uh when they can actually have a wonderful sexual relationship just by asking these questions and being open-minded?

SPEAKER_03 49:23

So would you say, or let me put it this way, what would you say is the biggest issue that couples are encountering when it comes to what is standing between them having a great sex life?

SPEAKER_00 49:39

I think that's it. I really think it's it's being uh open-minded, having a sense of humor, and being playful and adventurous about love making. And, you know, really trying to understand what's turning your partner on, what's turning your partners off. And the other thing that I think is really critical is talking about how to respond to no. So that when your partner says no, you know, I'm I'm really not in the mood to make love. It's the furthest thing from my mind. I absolutely don't want to do that. That no doesn't have to end connection. Because the response to no should be, thank you for telling me you're not in the mood to have sex or you know, make love. What are you in the mood for? Should we make some popcorn and watch a movie? Uh should we go for a walk? You want to cuddle? Yeah. Do you want time alone? You know what? You know, it doesn't have to end connection. It can you can still stay connected to one another. So the way somebody responds to no is really critical. If they sulk and punish their partner for saying no, our research shows that they'll eventually have much less sex. If they're open-minded when their partner says no, they'll have much more sex. No does not have to end connection. And I think that's a critical thing for people to realize, especially when a woman says no.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

In talking about the the gaps that may that still exist in research, things to still be still be researched, what are some that you believe are left to be discovered?

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Oh, that's a great question, Kimberly. You know, um, so you know, I'm I'm kind of a systems thinker. And you know, so I'm really interested. We we have discovered that, you know, when we try to help couples, that through prevention, we're able to have an effect that is three times the size of the effect we have when we try to intervene after problems have developed. So rather than preventing problems, we wait until the problems develop and then we do therapy with a couple or have a workshop with a couple. So I really want to know more about prevention. How can we help couples really kind of understand the territory of relationships so that it becomes something that people can do, like a set of skills that they can master. If they want to have a happy relationship, we know that people in happy, stable relationships live an average of 15 years longer than people who are alone or people in unhappy relationships. So, you know, it's every bit as powerful as eating well and exercising and all the kinds of things you do to keep your body healthy. You keep your soul healthy by having great relationships. And not just love relationships, uh, but also relationships with your children, with your friends, with co-workers. So the ability to have a great relationship in your life turns out to be very health-giving. And we understand the mechanism through which that works. So I'd like to understand how to reach people. Um

Sex Talks, Playfulness, And Handling No

SPEAKER_00 53:05

you know, in medicine, there's this amazing thing that if you take all the people who have chronic health problems like diabetes, hypertension, asthma, only half of them take their medicine. The other half actually don't do what's good for them. And they they get sick and die because medicine has cures for these chronic ailments. My my blood pressure is managed by medication. I'm genetically susceptible to high blood pressure, I'm genetically susceptible to diabetes, but I can manage those. Well, the same thing is true for relationships. You ought to really have some way in our culture where people can get together and deal cooperatively with conflict instead of aggressively and hostily toward conflict. And so what I'm really concerned about is how can we really be more cooperative with one another as a species rather than aggressive and hostile and selfish? You know, both tendencies exist in us human beings, you know, the tendency to be to be mean and hostile and you know, racist and sexist and you know, and selfish. But we also have this incredible ability to cooperate and love. But my question is, how can we move people, our species, toward more cooperation and more love and prevent these terrible things from happening where you know people are lonely and unhappy and miserable and and live live less healthy lives and live, you know, don't live as long. So that's really my question.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

Do you know Dr. David Matsumato?

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

Yes. I had him on my podcast about a year ago now, and one thing I will never forget that he said was when he was doing the research of what it would take to end terrorism in the Middle East, that the findings were that it has to begin within the home. Because it was that it is within the home that people learn to hate or learn to love.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 55:26

So as I'm listening to you talk about what could these prevent preventative factors be, I'm just thinking, is it isn't it going to have to start within the home? And what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Yeah, you know, we actually have studied that and we came up with a thing called emotion coaching, which the the masters of parenting do. They really see moments when their child feels a strong emotion, disappointment, anger, you know, as opportunities for connection. And they go in and they listen and they understand their child, and that's the key. Emotion coaching has now been tried everywhere on the planet, and it's really effective. Children are the same everywhere. And a parent who listens develops a child who can love, and that's the key.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

That's good. I love that. Okay, Dr. Gottman, I just have one final question for you. Although I could talk to you all day. So many

Prevention, Parenting, And The One Rule

SPEAKER_03 56:30

more questions.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

Me too. I'm enjoying this.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

In honor of your time. So, what do you believe is the number one thing for a long-lasting marriage?

SPEAKER_00 56:41

You know, I think what it is, and my this is supported by my research, is to develop the motto that when your partner is upset about anything, the world stops and you listen. And you listen without judgment, and you take notes about what your partner is saying, and you say, baby, what are you feeling? What do you need? And that's it. That's the one thing. If you do that over the long run, you'll have a happy, stable relationship.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

I love it. That's great.

unknown 57:23

Thank you for the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Thank you, Cam Bully.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

Thank you. I encourage all everyone listening to get the book, Eight Dates, as well as other books that Dr. Gottman has, the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, the one about trust, the science of trust, which I'm now going to go get and read because I definitely want to understand the betrayal and loyalty conversation even more. But thank you again for all of the work you've done. Thank you for having this conversation with me today. It's I loved it.